Zazen Challenge for Therapy on Discipline and Weakness

**Tairin** · 11-12-2018, 02:14 PM

I am not sure what you think is competitive about your post but to answer your question. I think routine is the key. At this point I view my Zazen routine as being similar to my gym routine. For the past 20+ years I have got up out of bed at 5:30 to go to the gym. It is routine and I don’t even really think about it anymore (full disclosure; on those mornings of -20 or colder I can be convinced to stay in my nice warm bed). My Zazen routine is similar. I have a time of day and I stick with it. I don’t even really think about that anymore either. It is just a part of my day like brushing my teeth, taking a shower.

Again using the gym as an analogy, I’ve seen many many people start going to the gym and then after a while stop. The reason is usually lack of routine. They try to squeeze their gym time around their lives and inevitably start skipping one then another session. Eventually they just stop altogether.

Pick a time in the morning or night and stick with it. 6am in the morning is your Zazen time, sit Zazen. Don’t let other things infringe on your Zazen time. You can do them later if it is important.

This Ango I am really seeing this routine (or in this case lack of routine) in practice. One of my commitments was to sit a second Zazen each day. Since that second Zazen isn’t part of my daily routine I am struggling to be consistent with it. I have missed a few of them.

Last bit of advice, people who go to the gym with a workout partner tend to stick with it longer. You don’t want to let your partner down so you keep motivating yourself to go. I sit each day with my wife. She doesn’t sit Zazen, she is doing something more closely related to her yoga practice but we sit together during our Zazen time. I think the Treeleaf FSR and the sitting schedule would be fantastic motivators. If I didn’t sit with my wife I’d likely align with one of those scheduled sits. I know the Eurocrew make a concerted effort to sit together which is awesome.

My 2 cents. Good luck.

Tairin
Sat today according to my routine and lah

Mp · 11-12-2018, 02:27 PM

Hello Beakon,

Hmm, discipline and support in my eyes are two different things. we can get support from the Sangha, but discipline comes from ourselves. When it comes to zazen, to your practice, why are you holding yourself accountable? Just sit! As Tairin just said, "routine" is key. The more you do it, the easier it comes on those days that you don't want to do it.

Also, zazen can be done at anytime of the day ... to say that you are only going to do it at this time or that time, just asks extra pressure and stress to you. What happens if something important comes up at you can sit at that exact time? You sit at another time ... but it can add added pressure if you determined to sit at that time.

I personally feel that zazen should never be a challenge. That we should be open and accepting of what zazen is, what it brings to us, and what it teaches us. There are times when it can be hard, but that is why we do it. =)

Just as an aside ... if you are finding it hard to be disciplined with your sitting, maybe try an be disciplined in other areas of your life (as you mentioned with sleeping and eating late) ... as this quality is interchangeable.

Keep at it ... it takes time and effort, but the more you do it, the easy it becomes. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

**Beakon** · 11-12-2018, 05:12 PM

"When it comes to zazen, to your practice, why are you holding yourself accountable? Just sit! As Tairin just said, "routine" is key. The more you do it, the easier it comes on those days that you don't want to do it.

I personally feel that zazen should never be a challenge. That we should be open and accepting of what zazen is, what it brings to us, and what it teaches us. There are times when it can be hard, but that is why we do it. =)

Just as an aside ... if you are finding it hard to be disciplined with your sitting, maybe try an be disciplined in other areas of your life (as you mentioned with sleeping and eating late) ... as this quality is interchangeable"

I am sitting down at the City Place Mall with my laptop. There needs to be cover letters written for several employers. I am going to start off warming up my writing by writing a reply. I woke up feeling nervous this morning, like "what is everyone going to think about this post?".

Before bed I was reading The Way of Tai Chi. My wife brought it home from work, where she is a palliative health care aide. A 53 year old dying man gave it to her so I could have it. I recalled the times that I listened to motivational talks about just "doing it". I sat down to read about thirty pages. My wife continually asked me "are you going to start meditating?". She was practicing her violin in the living room, so I had to meditate in the bedroom.

I came up with the idea to make a character building challenge for myself. You see in the beginning of my daily zazen practice I was good at getting thirty minutes a day in. What I've noticed about meditating close to bedtime is a) I'm vulnerable to falling asleep b) it feels very, very good. The wife is not happy about me keeping her awake. From having this daily practice, I realize that I like to start things, but I cannot handle simple things. Doing simple things is difficult, because it's difficult to motivate myself to do them.

To deconstruct daily zazen practice subskills are needed like sleep hygiene, time management, and stress management. I have been working on three, I find that they take devotion.

What Tairin has accomplished with his routine is somewhat similar to what I want to accomplish. Say that other meditations that look attractive cause me to feel inspired. I don't think I can do them well, even consistently. I have not developed enough self-discipline.

In the beginning, it was easy to practice for thirty minutes. I encountered challenges like skipping breakfasts, coming home late from work, helping with an insomniac wife, and her late night shifts. In the morning, from skipping my alarm, the karmic consequence would be hyper-focusing on what needs to be done immediately. I used to meditate fifteen minutes before leaving for work. In those siutations, zazen doesn't feel relaxing, it feels like I'm nervous and my gut feeling tells me someting is not right. As I understand more about zazen practice, it's okay to feel the negative emotions to learn how to recognize them and learn about how they feel. This morning when I practiced before leaving the apartment, my session felt the best it's been in a while. The only problem was that I skipped making oatmeal, then headed right out the door.

The book The Way of Tai Chi talks about how Tai Chi is an expression of moving through life. There are ways the universe is thrown off kilter, therefore becomes antagonistic. The central idea is trying to blend in with the universe, rather than trying to force it to bend to my will. I feel like my life is in disharmony, but zazen has taught me to see things as they are. I have faith that this phase in my life is impermanent. A women from the Employment Income Assistance office told me "this is a small part of your life you are going to make it through". I haven't forgotten what she told me, because her kindness stood out. The benefit of having a job is having a routine. I lost having a routine from being at home. I get overwhelmed by the amount of house work and office work. Practicing zazen helps me stay calm and focused in times of turbulence.

**Jishin** · 11-12-2018, 06:33 PM

Hi Beakon,

Why sit? It’s just a waste of time.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Beakon** · 11-12-2018, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Jishin

Hi Beakon,

Why sit? It’s just a waste of time.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Hahaha, that made me laugh Jishin.

Gassho,

Beakon

Mp · 11-12-2018, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Beakon

"When it comes to zazen, to your practice, why are you holding yourself accountable? Just sit! As Tairin just said, "routine" is key. The more you do it, the easier it comes on those days that you don't want to do it.

I personally feel that zazen should never be a challenge. That we should be open and accepting of what zazen is, what it brings to us, and what it teaches us. There are times when it can be hard, but that is why we do it. =)

Just as an aside ... if you are finding it hard to be disciplined with your sitting, maybe try an be disciplined in other areas of your life (as you mentioned with sleeping and eating late) ... as this quality is interchangeable"

I am sitting down at the City Place Mall with my laptop. There needs to be cover letters written for several employers. I am going to start off warming up my writing by writing a reply. I woke up feeling nervous this morning, like "what is everyone going to think about this post?".

Before bed I was reading The Way of Tai Chi. My wife brought it home from work, where she is a palliative health care aide. A 53 year old dying man gave it to her so I could have it. I recalled the times that I listened to motivational talks about just "doing it". I sat down to read about thirty pages. My wife continually asked me "are you going to start meditating?". She was practicing her violin in the living room, so I had to meditate in the bedroom.

I came up with the idea to make a character building challenge for myself. You see in the beginning of my daily zazen practice I was good at getting thirty minutes a day in. What I've noticed about meditating close to bedtime is a) I'm vulnerable to falling asleep b) it feels very, very good. The wife is not happy about me keeping her awake. From having this daily practice, I realize that I like to start things, but I cannot handle simple things. Doing simple things is difficult, because it's difficult to motivate myself to do them.

To deconstruct daily zazen practice subskills are needed like sleep hygiene, time management, and stress management. I have been working on three, I find that they take devotion.

What Tairin has accomplished with his routine is somewhat similar to what I want to accomplish. Say that other meditations that look attractive cause me to feel inspired. I don't think I can do them well, even consistently. I have not developed enough self-discipline.

In the beginning, it was easy to practice for thirty minutes. I encountered challenges like skipping breakfasts, coming home late from work, helping with an insomniac wife, and her late night shifts. In the morning, from skipping my alarm, the karmic consequence would be hyper-focusing on what needs to be done immediately. I used to meditate fifteen minutes before leaving for work. In those siutations, zazen doesn't feel relaxing, it feels like I'm nervous and my gut feeling tells me someting is not right. As I understand more about zazen practice, it's okay to feel the negative emotions to learn how to recognize them and learn about how they feel. This morning when I practiced before leaving the apartment, my session felt the best it's been in a while. The only problem was that I skipped making oatmeal, then headed right out the door.

The book The Way of Tai Chi talks about how Tai Chi is an expression of moving through life. There are ways the universe is thrown off kilter, therefore becomes antagonistic. The central idea is trying to blend in with the universe, rather than trying to force it to bend to my will. I feel like my life is in disharmony, but zazen has taught me to see things as they are. I have faith that this phase in my life is impermanent. A women from the Employment Income Assistance office told me "this is a small part of your life you are going to make it through". I haven't forgotten what she told me, because her kindness stood out. The benefit of having a job is having a routine. I lost having a routine from being at home. I get overwhelmed by the amount of house work and office work. Practicing zazen helps me stay calm and focused in times of turbulence.

Hey Beakon,

Ok, a couple things if I may ...

1. Could you please sign your post with a human name. The reason we do this is to create a more personal connection with one another. Also, a lot of folks add a Gassho or Palms together - again this helps us cultivate humility when making statements or comments and gratitude for the feedback we are going to receive from our fellow Sangha member's.

2. Please see our SatToday requirement (https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ore-Forum-Chat) ... this can be helpful for you when posting. Thinking to yourself, "have a sat today" before posting may encourage/help you just sit.

Now, let me respond to your post. I say this from my heart and to help and support you ... but I have found that you overthink this practice, you are overthinking zazen. Yes there is a time to overthink, to analyze, to prop-into, to understand something. But when it comes to zazen we don't ... instead, we allow things in that moment to just be what they are. We don't overthink or analyze them - rather we allow ourselves to be open and accepting of ALL experiences within zazen to be just what they are.

From what I have read so far of your post, it seems that discipline is a struggle for you ... that is ok, it can be a struggle for many folks and at different times of our lives - this too is life. But practice is not about adding an extra thing to do or worry about. Practice is about enriching and finding balance in our lives. Baby steps are a key to finding that balance in your life. Take zazen slow, there is no need to jump right in a say I have to sit twice a day for 30mins each. Sit for 5mins, be right there wholeheartedly for that 5mins ... quality over quantity will be your friend here. Progress, not perfection.

In zazen we try not to compare, "their practice seems so much better then mine". Zazen is not about good or bad, right or wrong, long or short ... zazen is just zazen. Zazen is what you make it! Patience! Allow this practice to naturally unfold on it's own. Your job is not to compare the pace with others, but to rather experience it for yourself. There will be times when it all falls into place and other times where it is a struggle ... either way, just sit and don't overthink it or analyze it.

Does that make sense? Go slow, baby steps ... take breathe, let it go, relax ... all is good. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

**Jishin** · 11-12-2018, 10:06 PM

Hi,

Dogen may have told a joke that goes something like this:

Knock Knock.

Who's there?

Zazen.

Zazen who?

Zazen Zazen!

:-)

Our Rinzai colleagues may tell a similar joke.

From the Mumonkan Koan number one:

Knock Knock.

Who's there?

Mu.

Mu who?

Mu Mu!

:-)

Gassho, Jishin, ST

**Jakuden** · 11-12-2018, 10:40 PM

Hi Sean (Shawn?)
I have a lot of trouble with routine. My brain is just not wired for it. Most folks find it easiest to do something at the same time every day, but for me it's a surefire way to fail, get discouraged and quit. If I want to keep doing something long term, I have to find a way to make it stay interesting, even though in Zazen we practice with boredom and resistance. I practice with a lot of boredom and resistance! So I do try to get in morning Zazen most days, but if I miss it, I just make sure to do it some other time... I resist being a perfectionist about exactly when, where, or how long, and just sit.
It does help that we are not supposed to post here in the forum without having sat--that's the whole "SatToday" concept--so that provides the little extra push I sometimes need.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

**Shinshi** · 11-13-2018, 12:36 AM

You know, you got do what you gotta do. If coming up with a plan like you are suggesting works for you then give it a whirl. But I am going to riff on Jakuden's post.

If you think to yourself: "I should sit", then just sit. Right then, right there. Don't think: "I have to go my special zen sitting spot, put on my special zen sitting clothing". Just sit right then and there. Sit in your chair, sit in your car. Sit for a minute, sit for 5, sit for 10. Just go ahead and sit. Sitting is the important thing. So go ahead and sit. And the more you do, the more you will do.

I am not saying don't do it "correctly". I am a fan of ritual. But if you only sit when you do the whole ritual then you missing out on a lot of great opportunities to sit.

So if you think you should sit, then sit. It will build up your sitting muscles!

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

**Geika** · 11-13-2018, 02:28 AM

I suggested in another post that with habits I try to gain in my life, I start by doing them for one minute ONLY, and gradually build up the time. I am subject to overzealousness and then burnout. So I keep things small and go slowly.

I don't sit at a specific time of day because my work schedule changes. Rather, I have a to do list of daily goals. Zazen is on there. As soon as I wake up, or as soon as I get home, I go into robot mode and do each thing until it's all done. After that, I am free to do whatever I wish. I keep only real necessities and goals on this list. If I add too much structure or try to focus for too long, as I said, I will burnout and inevitably need to start over.

Sat today, lah

**Washin** · 11-13-2018, 07:30 AM

Hi Beakon,

Once I heard a teacher from the local Sangha answering the question, "..although you sit with a group one day a week, go to a sesshin every 2-3 months, practice in a monastery for two weeks once in a year, it is still a kind of hobby not a Practice. Zazen must be sat daily! Even if for a few minutes." That moved me so much then. Today I sit in the SSR in the morning for 40 minutes but before the volunteering I had many struggles to build up the discipline first. I'd echo folks' advices here - try to begin with a few muinutes each morning/night without fail, then try to increase the time gradually. Slowly it'll get incorporated into your routine like, as Tairin said, brushing the teeth and going to bathroom. Also try to use other time during the day whenever you're free. Not sticking to a particular time of sitting is a good advice too.

Good luck and thank you for your Practice.

Gassho,
Washin
sattoday

**Kokuu** · 11-13-2018, 07:09 PM

Hi Beakon

I would echo what Shingen said about not overthinking things.

Structure can be helpful, and I find it useful to have a routine of when I sit zazen, when I do dharma study and so forth. I lived in a dharma centre for six months and having the regularity of sitting times really worked for me so I brought it into my everyday life when I left.

However, life rarely runs like clockwork and sitting times meet hunger, tiredness, what our partner is doing etc. It is good to find general times which work for us but making those set in stone can be more harm than help. I imagine you know the advice that the Buddha gave to Sona, the lute player, that practice should be like his lute strings - not too tight, not too loose.

Morning and evening sits both have advantages (and both if you can fit it in) but the best time to sit is the time that works for you.

And, as others have said, starting slow and working up allows your sitting time to bed in.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

**Beakon** · 11-14-2018, 04:05 AM

What's cooking? What's cooking? Cornbread and vegan jambalaya so good, you can smell it already.

So, I'm in a good mood feeling chipper about life today, as I'm making dinner feeling accomplished about what I've set out to do. I regularly look for work as a 'full-time' unemployed job seeker, doing routine tasks. What made my day was zazen practice improved, as I woke up early and began a fifteen-minute session. I woke up to feed the cats, rabbits, and say good bye to the Mrs. before she left. Practicing zazen helped my confidence, because I felt like I was on the ball. What helped was using a jasmine essential oil in the diffuser while I slept. It has a rejuvenating effect while I sleep, so when I woke up I drank a glass of water to stimulate my body and mind.

I was listening to The Beatles Blue Album while delivering newspapers in the Health Sciences Centre as my volunteering position. Shingen is right, I have been known to overthink. I can't tell how long I've been off kilter with zazen practice, doing this challenge has helped me find balance. Jakuden, you are right about how being a perfectionist can make oneself overzealous. The overzealousness leads to burn out which leads to restlessness and disorder. I was thinking about what the sangha was saying while delivering those newspapers. Washin, that quote from the meditation teacher moved me, it reminded me of how I used to drop out of Buddhism and meditation.

I am full-time now, taking the Zen practice one day at a time. Shingen, it can be difficult to take it one day at a time, there is so much creativity, things to learn and explore. I know that if I try to discipline myself, form a foundation of simple practices, and gradually grow like a flower. I took time to meditate for a short five-minute session before bed last night, I'm hoping to continue the pattern for as long as it will last. The pattern being fifteen-minute zazen meditation in the morning, then five-minute zazen practice in the evening. Since I am cultivating and nurturing my self-discipline, I am not ready to practice meditations like Tonglen or Metta full-time, but casually.

The Parable of the Lute! That's one of my favorite ones, how could have I forgotten about it during this practice? Dharma practice is a noble protector for all those who practice. I find that story matches the context of the purpose of this challenge, which is trying to get back into harmony.

**Nanrin** · 11-14-2018, 04:54 AM

Hello Sangha (especial Beakon!) friends

I know most of you were giving advice to Beakon, but as I've been working on having a bit more discipline and order in my life for the last couple weeks and am benefitting from all your advice as well.

Beakon: You mentioned a book on Tai Chi in your comment. I learned Tai Chi a few years ago, but stopped practicing and moved away from my sifu. I've recently resumed practice in the morning, it's quite the treat. Perhaps you could incorporate it into your routine. It's a beautiful exercise.

Maybe in life I need discipline and order, but once my butt hits the cushion, there isn't really anything to do or anywhere to go. Funny how we put off something as simple not-doing isn't it?

Gassho,

Maitri

St

Zazen Challenge for Therapy on Discipline and Weakness

Zazen Challenge for Therapy on Discipline and Weakness

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