What do you know, we really are all waves

[Shinshi]

And from

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae307.cfm

"There is much evidence of matter possessing such a de Broglie wavelength. The double slit experiment demonstrates interference effects in photons, electrons, and neutrons, the last of which being very significant, considering that the neutron is perhaps the densest mass on Earth.

What about humans? Well, theoretically, since all matter possess wave-like properties, so do humans, and cats, and whatever you please."


Because of our mass our wave periods are really, really short. But we are waving away.



Jundo (and/or others) any recommendations for physics books that either interface with / or inform our practice? Or are just a good read.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

I am actually writing one with a theoretical physicist, an old friend of many years. This is him. However, the writing pace is so slow (because of his schedule mostly) that our sun may be a white dwarf by the time we finish!

I haven't mentioned this much, because I wanted to make sure the plan had some hope. I have spent the last several weeks working with a dear friend on a book. He is a theoretical physicist from Italy specializing in sub-atomic and quantum phenomena, I am the Zen guy, and we are bouncing back and forth in conversation on topics such as time, space and anything else you can think of. I have known Saverio for 25 years.

Frankly, we only have about 10 pages so far, but my friend just called to say he thinks it is working ... and he is sticking with it to the end. Of course, the subject is the intersections, commonalities and differences between physics, modern science and Buddhism.

Some of his dozens of papers on quantum physics ...

http://www.ba.infn.it/~pascazio/pub.html

The "Dancing Wu-Li Masters" and the "Tao of Physics" are now really dated, and both have been criticized for being overly romantic and making extreme claims.

A good book, although also a bit old, is this one by Soto Teacher Steve Hagen. People don't talk about it much, but I remember it as pretty good (I read it 15 years ago).

Why the World Doesn't Seem to Make Sense: An Inquiry into Science, Philosophy, and Perception

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591811805/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i3

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shoki]

Zen Physics by David Darling. But don't take this recommendation too seriously. I got a D in physics.

Gassho,
Sat Today / LH
James

[newby_x86]

Thanks for sharing, Shinshi.

Anant
Sat

[Jundo]

Zen Physics by David Darling. But don't take this recommendation too seriously. I got a D in physics.

Gassho,
Sat Today / LH
James

I deleted my earlier "judge a book by its cover" comment on this book because I actually was able to download and read it today! (Yeah, summer vacation!)

It was much better than I expected, although with a few weak spots I will mention.

I am usually very skeptical about books that too easily look to science to prove something about some "cosmic consciousness" by throwing around simplistic versions of quantum mechanics, pseudo-science and the like. I found this book just serious enough, detailed and well-reasoned enough by an actual astrophysicist to escape my usual criticism.

The book is not actually about "Zen and physics" (except in one chapter that contains some misstatements about Zen, although generally accurate in otherwise describing Zen practices ... no need to detail those here). The rest of the book is a very detailed, well written, seemingly well informed and erudite presentation of the workings of the brain and perception, the creation of a subjective sense of "self," the philosophical history of the "mind/body" problem, notions of "self" in the west and in Asia, and the like.

Finally, the author presents at the very very end of the book two grand assertions based on all that. He has no particular evidence for the assertions, but does propose how the conclusion would explain some great mysteries about human existence such as how we do have a subjective sense of being alive which somehow arises from the neurons of the brain, resulting in your present most subjective sense of "here I am," on some world in the middle of space:

First, there is an underlying fundamental conscious element to the universe that is more closely tied to matter than we recognize, such that it would be false to say only that consciousness arises from the matter of the brain alone. He gives good reasons (such as the quantum mechanical research and more) that scientists are inching toward such a conclusion. He points to the brain as a mechanism that actually limits this consciousness to a particular sense of "self" and "I". In other words (get ready!) ... you are you and I am you and all things are you, but experienced looking out of different eyes. Heck, the mountains and waters are you too. You feel like "you," but so do I (feel like you when I feel like "I").

It reminds me very much of this other science article I read recently from Scientific American ...

Scientific American: Could Multiple Personality Disorder Explain Life, the Universe and Everything?

A new paper argues that the condition now known as “Dissociative Identity Disorder” might help us understand the fundamental nature of reality

...

And here is where dissociation comes in. We know empirically from DID that consciousness can give rise to many operationally distinct centers of concurrent experience, each with its own personality and sense of identity. Therefore, if something analogous to DID happens at a universal level, the one universal consciousness could, as a result, give rise to many alters with private inner lives like yours and ours. As such, we may all be alters—dissociated personalities—of universal consciousness.

Moreover, as we’ve seen earlier, there is something dissociative processes look like in the brain of a patient with DID. So, if some form of universal-level DID happens, the alters of universal consciousness must also have an extrinsic appearance. We posit that this appearance is life itself: metabolizing organisms are simply what universal-level dissociative processes look like.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...?sf192035709=1

In that sense, this book next posits that we are constantly "reborn" when we die because "you" are constantly popping up with different eyes. (He is not more specific than that). It left me with something of the impression of the carnival funhouse of mirrors, in which "you" are all around in all directions, except this is not just images of you ... but myriad subjective versions of "you" repeated again and again, but each feeling separate and seeing reality from separate vantage points ... but all inside subjectively experiencing "youness" again and again just like you are now in reading this.

In fact, he makes a pretty good case after reading his explanation of quantum mechanics (how the observer changes physical events in the act of observation), brain structure and function and the mind/body problem. Let me at least say that his argument is plausable (to me as a non-scienctist), not in conflict in any way (in fact, very much in harmony) with Zen perspectives, and there does not seem to be anything in current scientific belief to contradict the possibility. (One part of evidence he offers, so-called "near death experiences," however, I think he overvalues. These have been tested and explained by much more mundane physiological and psychological causes. Zen practitioner and neuro-scientist Susan Blackmore has a lot to say on this topic ... )

http://skepdic.com/obe.html

In summary, there is much in this book that seems in very great harmony with Buddhist and Zen teachings on the illusion of "self," and how "we are the universe" and "I am you and you are me in disguise." Despite the flaws, it was as well reasoned as possible given our present state of knowledge. This book is not some "new age" fluff or Deeprocks Chopra selling spiritual junk. I have a hunch that, down the road, such ideas as presented in this book will turn out to be more right than wrong. Yes, in light of Zen teachings on "one with the universe" and Dogen's views on all the universe pouring into and out of all this living universe and you too ... no problem finding common ground.

Gassho, Jundo (who is you sitting here typing this)

STLah

PS - Anyone see that movie, being john malcovich?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6Fuxkinhug

[Doshin]

Shinshi,

Years ago there was movie of three people having a conversation about this (not recommending it because I do not remember the contents). However as a native Californian who liked the beach I did remember this https://youtu.be/9UsUL7D_GOo

Gassho
Doshin
St

[Doshin]

Movie was 1990 Mind Walk...based on Tao of Physics.

Gassho
Doshin
St

[Rosui]

There's a quantum physicist name Dr. Sunako that comes to the Ryusenji zazen group quite often. He did a collaboration with Inoue Tetsugen Roshi on Zen and Quantum Physics.
He did a presentation at the temple and I had about 20 pages of his work somewhere. If I can find it I'll put it up here or something.

Gassho

Rosui
st

[Shinshi]

Thanks for the responses. I did know you were writing the book Jundo which is why I thought you might have some suggestions. I have also seen Being John Malcovich but it has been a long time. I remember enjoying it a lot. I appreciate the review of the book. Thanks to everyone for suggestions.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Doshin]

This thread reminded to look in my bookshelf for a book I bought awhile back but never read (forgot it was there until today). The book is The Quantum and the Lotus by M. Richard and T. X. Thuan 2001.

Jundo any thoughts on that book?

Gassho
Doshin
St

[Jundo]

This thread reminded to look in my bookshelf for a book I bought awhile back but never read (forgot it was there until today). The book is The Quantum and the Lotus by M. Richard and T. X. Thuan 2001.

Jundo any thoughts on that book?

Gassho
Doshin
St

Oh, I read it long ago ... vaguely remember it. But I really don't recall. How about you read it for us, offer a book report?!

Let me summarize however ...

If there is a "cosmic consciousness" and we are all "John Malkovich" in this life or any lives to come ... chop wood and fetch water, sit Zazen and live gently in this life. We are the universe.

And if there is no "cosmic consciousness" and we are all not "John Malkovich" in this life and there are not any lives to come ... chop wood and fetch water, sit Zazen and live gently in this life. We are the universe.

Gassho, J

SaTodayLAH

[Doshin]

Oh, I read it long ago ... vaguely remember it as pretty good. But I really don't recall. How about you read it for us, offer a book report?!

Let me summarize however ...

If there is a "cosmic consciousness" and we are all "John Malkovich" in this life or any lives to come ... chop wood and fetch water, sit Zazen and live gently in this life. We are the universe.

And if there is no "cosmic consciousness" and we are all not "John Malkovich" in this life and there are not any lives to come ... chop wood and fetch water, sit Zazen and live gently in this life. We are the universe.

Gassho, J

SaTodayLAH

Ok. Once I finish reading and wrestling with Mountain and Waters Sutra I will read Quantum and Lotus and offer my impression.

Gassho
Doshin
St

[Jundo]

Ok. Once I finish reading and wrestling with Mountain and Waters Sutra I will read Quantum and Lotus and offer my impression.

Gassho
Doshin
St

I ordered it today. I will give it a reread. I am on a Buddhism and physics kick now.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shoki]

I just scanned through my bookshelf and found the Quatum and the Lotus. I read it years ago but don't really remember it.

Gassho,
Sat Today / LAH
James

[Jundo]

Ok. Once I finish reading and wrestling with Mountain and Waters Sutra I will read Quantum and Lotus and offer my impression.

Gassho
Doshin
St

Okay! I had a chance today to reread a large portion of Quantum & the Lotus (Yeah, summer vacation!) and ...

... I remembered why I did not care for the book the first time I read it a few years ago. Doshin, I advise you to maybe skip this one.

Here is why, basically three points:

1 - Tibetan Buddhism, more than Zen Buddhism, can be very philosophical and metaphysical, in a very arcane "how many angels fit on the head of a pin" way. The Tibetans love to debate philosophy (as seen in this video), and often they come to their own very obscure and picky conclusions, using their own rather unique and also arcane logic systems, on a variety of Buddhists topics such as the nature of "emptiness" and reality ... It is really their own "in house" belief system. They have turned such doctrinal debate into a ritual, literally ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s--f_Z3bSG4

2 - Despite many of the points being raised being founded in the particular wordview of the Tibetans, the book (in fact, many Tibetan Buddhist books seem to do this) has a bothersome tendency to say "Buddhists believe X" and "Buddhists believe Y," when the point is more that "Tibetan Buddhists believe so ... "

3 - The book really tip toes through many of the more fantastic beliefs of Tibetan Buddhism such as rebirth in the "Bardo" and then into future lives, making it sound as if Tibetan Buddhism is a completely rational system. When such topics as the "Bardo" are raised, the particular physicist who is the co-author does not really question the assertion, and simply says that it sounds somehow "scientific." The book keeps asserting that all Tibetan beliefs are very scientific or better than science for understanding reality, even the more hard to believe beliefs. The monk-author will explain how "Buddhists believe" that reality is built from fire, air, earth and water, and the scientist will say that it all sounds very reasonable.

I would not recommend this one.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH