Meditation and ego

[Kyoshin]

Here begins my concerted effort to be more active in the forums. Wish me luck!
Here's an article I found that seemed interesting, in which some researchers found that that yoga and meditation can lead to inflated egos.

https://qz.com/1307380/yoga-and-meditation-boost-your-ego-say-psychology-researchers/

Seems interesting to think about. I know I've certainly noticed increased self-satisfaction when I'm diligent in my zazen practice. And I know more than a few people who really think they're hot stuff because they meditate (and will gladly tell you all about it.)

I imagine some ego inflation is unavoidable, because it feels good to do good things. It may even be useful as a way to motivate onesself to keep sitting. It seems though theres a fine line between saying "I'm better than I was yesterday because I meditated" and "I'm better than you because I meditated"

Gassho,
Sat, lah
Nick

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[Jundo]

Hi Nick,

I will offer a really sideways answer: Nothing wrong with certain kinds of self-contentment and positive valuation through Zen Practice, so long as it is of certain kinds, and is mixed in with humility and a healthy balance of concern for all sentient beings too. The middle way here.

We live in a day and age in which people either suffer from poor self image and low self esteem, to over-inflated egos, narcissism and selfishness (and, my psychologist friends tell me, those are really two faces of the same coin.)

Zen teaches us that we are "just the universe" and not a separate self, yet also (this is true too) we are a unique and precious jewel that the whole universe pours into. So, there is a kind of positive esteem about ourselves, because we are one shining jewel.

That does not mean that we don't have faults and things about ourself to fix. For example, we may be a "shining jewel" as a violent alcoholic, but the violent alcoholic will not realize that fact (thus, in her dissatisfaction, all the need to fill the hold inside with anger and alcohol). We may be a "shining jewel" skinny or a "shining jewel" fat, but if we need to diet for health reasons, then best to do so and move from "shining jewel" fat to "shining jewel" thin.

As Suzuki Roshi once said ... “Nothing we see or hear is perfect. But right there in the imperfection is perfect reality.” and “Each of you is perfect the way you are ... and you can use a little improvement.”

Suzuki is also quoted as saying this, but here I disagree with him a little: “How much “ego” do you need? Just enough so that you don’t step in front of a bus.”

I think that human beings can have a little bit more than that without it being harmful. Buddha and Dogen had the self-confidence, self-esteem and chutzpah to believe that they were on to some truths that would benefit others, so they organized large communities to do so. I think that, if kept in balance and in service of the greater good, then there is nothing wrong with a little pride. The Japanese craftsman I know, tea masters, flower teachers, martial artists, all must take some pride in their art. No problem if a reasonable amount, and kept in service to others.

So, the middle way here.



Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

PS - I think that was a pretty good answer!

[Jundo]

A good time for Arj Barker ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5XnFAcjAJY

[Kyoshin]

A lot of assumptions are being made in that article: atman=ego=high self esteem and feeling good about oneself. Those are assumptions I can't get behind.

Gassho
Tom
Sat

Yes there are some questionable assumptions going on there, but I think they're relatively minor and in the real of semantic interpretation. The main idea as I see it, that yoga, meditation, etc can inflate the ego, is still sound despite the questionable assumptions of a popular online article writer. Heck, Chogyam Trungpa wrote a whole book on the topic, so it's not new. But this is the first time I've heard of people doing scientific research on the topic.
Here's the abstract from the actual paper: "Mind-body practices enjoy immense public and scientific interest. Yoga and meditation are highly popular. Purportedly, they foster well-being by “quieting the ego” or, more specifically, curtailing self-enhancement. However, this ego-quieting effect contradicts an apparent psychological universal, the self-centrality principle. According to this principle, practicing any skill renders it self-central, and self-centrality breeds self-enhancement. We examined those opposing predictions in the first tests of mind-body practices’ self-enhancement effects. Experiment 1 followed 93 yoga students over 15 weeks, assessing self-centrality and self-enhancement after yoga practice (yoga condition, n = 246) and without practice (control condition, n = 231). Experiment 2 followed 162 meditators over 4 weeks (meditation condition: n = 246; control condition: n = 245). Self-enhancement was higher in the yoga (Experiment 1) and meditation (Experiment 2) conditions, and those effects were mediated by greater self-centrality. Additionally, greater self-enhancement mediated mind-body practices’ well-being benefits. Evidently, neither yoga nor meditation quiet the ego; instead, they boost self-enhancement."

We could argue about whether self enhancement equates to ego. Or whether ego is good or bad (I argue neither). Self enhancement certainly isn't necessarily bad: the Buddha himself is quoted as listing off some of his more admirable qualities to his students. But if we take this research as gospel, and assume that self enhancement is unavoidable in meditation what's the difference between someone who's self enhancement remains rooted in humility and compassion, and someone who gets all cocky about their practice?

Gassho
Nick

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Kyoshin]

A good time for Arj Barker ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5XnFAcjAJY

Is there a bad time for Arj Barker?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Kyoshin]

Thanks Jundo and Tom.

I understand that zazen is a goalless practice, and I also understand that it seems to have certain semi predictable effects. I wonder whether and how the way we think and talk about zazen might change as more systematic research is carried out into those effects.
Gassho
Nick

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Jishin]

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

Meditation and ego

I imagine some ego inflation is unavoidable, because it feels good to do good things.

I think that the ego is any story. It grows in size when it feels good or feels bad. The more the pain the better. Bigger painful ego. More pleasure is good too. Big ego full of pleasure. Bad zen student is good too for the ego. Big bad zen student ego. The ego attaches to anything it can get its hands on. With no story there is no ego. With no ego, there is no me. Without me, ouch! I don't want to die (not so soon anyway).

How to catch your shadow? Stop running and the shadow is right under you. Sitting under a nice shaded tree like Buddha is even better. No more shadow to worry about.
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My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

... what's the difference between someone who's self enhancement remains rooted in humility and compassion, and someone who gets all cocky about their practice?

I suppose you can just know it when one encounters or experiences it. That is what makes the Arj Barker video so funny.

Someone like Desmond Tutu, for example, seems to have been a spiritual figure who blended a great deal of self-confidence and self-centrality with humility and compassion for others. The Dalai Lama is another.

One must still beware of teachers who seem very humble and charismatic and later prove to be extremely self-centered and narcissistic individuals. (Unfortunately, I put Trungpa in that boat. That's him on the right, making his own kingdom complete with army).



Finally, beware of most (the vast majority of) studies of meditation and yoga. They are prone to small sample sizes, other methodological flaws and the have small statistical differences overblown in the press. This study seems like no exception. However, it is true that many people do become overly proud of their attainments as Buddhists and meditators sometimes.

Gassho, j

STLah

[Shinshou]

My understanding, and it may be wrong, is that the Freudian idea of the ego and Buddhist ego may be similar, but are not the same. One describes a sense that I am separate from the world, the other that I am constant from one moment to the next. This is the impression I got from Okumaura in "Living by Vow."

Jishin's comment is my experience as well, we are constantly revising our stories, usually in a way that justifies our current behavior, and that story tells us that we are constant, unchanging. The most freeing interactions are those in which we don't bring our stories with us, and encounter even familiar things "for the first time." Of course, being free of stories can just become your new story....

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

[Alfaiate]

How to catch your shadow? Stop running and the shadow is right under you. Sitting under a nice shaded tree like Buddha is even better. No more shadow to worry about.
[ATTACH]5245[/ATTACH]

[emoji2]


My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

This shadow story really hit home!!!

Thanks for insightful wisdom.

Gassho

[Rosui]

People saying 'throw away the self' gives me the creeps. Maybe I've got the wrong Idea about it.

Gassho
Rosui
st

[Sekiyuu]

Thanks for the video, Jundo!

Thanks for the insight, Jishin!

I think this article (probably unintentionally) touches on how embracing non-self seems to result in a lot of changes in attitude that paradoxically (or hypocritically, as the article interprets) result in higher self-confidence, self-esteem, and the other metrics presented in the article.

This is my interpretation of no-self: When I sit I can perceive that the only thing that's actually here in this moment is a bunch of different things happening at once, and that the mess of ideas, preferences, calculations, and judgments that we probably all agree is the "ego" or "self" is just a component of that. The thoughts which feel very much like "me" off the cushion, very much "cogito, ergo sum", feel like they're coming out of nowhere and belong to no-one during zazen. They aren't in control. There's nothing there that binds them together in a "self" that's making all the decisions, even though it feels that way outside of zazen. When I get an itch, I don't actually have to scratch it. When it's too hot, I don't have to feel miserable about it. There's other things to no-self, like how my mind-body couldn't exist without a vast series of events preceding it, but that's something I've rationalized from reading and thinking and not something I've directly perceived during or after zazen.

It's incredibly empowering to realize that when I make a kneejerk judgment or react to something with strong feelings, that I know from experience that I don't have to let those things take control. If I were to take a survey given to the study's subjects, I would probably rate higher on a lot of metrics of self-esteem simply because I'm better at dealing with my ego. I've avoided a lot of minor suffering and bad decisions by simply realizing I always have a choice. I can be angry right now, and I have to accept the anger, but I don't have to scream or smash things like the anger is telling me to, even if I'm the angriest I've ever been in my entire life. To interpret this as selfishness seems like thinking that anything but being miserable is a sign of narcissism. To interpret the number of times I just used "I" when writing about "non-self" as hypocrisy (honestly my first reaction to learning about "no-self") is just missing the point entirely and getting lost in semantics.

_/\_
Kenny
Sat Today / LAH

[Kyoshin]

This is my interpretation of no-self: When I sit I can perceive that the only thing that's actually here in this moment is a bunch of different things happening at once, and that the mess of ideas, preferences, calculations, and judgments that we probably all agree is the "ego" or "self" is just a component of that. The thoughts which feel very much like "me" off the cushion, very much "cogito, ergo sum", feel like they're coming out of nowhere and belong to no-one during zazen.

Hi Kenny,
Thanks for sharing your perspective; I hadn't considered it that way.

On a bit of a tangent, it's really interesting to me that you should say that about the thoughts that come up feeling like they come out of nowhere and belong to no one. The last few days I've been noticing "new" thoughts come up. I've gotten used to my thoughts popping in and out during zazen, and they've always been pretty much the same kinds of thoughts that pop up elsewhere in my daily life: "did I remember to turn the stove off?" "I need to go to the grocery store" "What am I going to get my mom for her birthday?" etc. Normal stuff. But all of a sudden, it's hard to describe, but I've had these fictional narratives pop up, almost like someone else stuck a dvd in my brain and we're watching a movie together. Sometimes they fade out quickly, sometimes a full narrative with beginning, middle, and end plays out in my head. I've been wondering where the heck they come from, since I don't have anything resembling those thoughts pop up at any other time, and I don't quite fully remember them after the bell rings. I'm not falling asleep and dreaming either; just today I sat with the windows open and noticed the noise of the construction project next door the whole time. Maybe I'm dreaming without falling asleep? Not exactly "on topic" but your commented just reminded me.

Gassho,
Nick
SATLAH

[Kyonin]

Hi everyone,

Ego is part of who we are. We need it in order to get up every morning, to take care of our health and the health of others, to go work, to study…

The problem with the ego is that it is a most excellent narrator and loves to create stories, most of them harmful.

In my narrow view, our practice allows us to se through the narrative and realize that even though we depend on our thought to survive, we must be aware of when and how we are immersed in thought in order to let the ego go.

Hope that makes sense. Haven't slept very well these days

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH