Grace

[Shinshou]

Hello all. A few days ago while mowing the lawn I was listening to a talk by brad Warner on his book "There Is No God and He Is Always With You" (the talk is from 2013). Toward the end, he took audience questions and one was about grace. I have my own thoughts that I'll share later, but it led me to wonder, does the concept of grace play any part in mainstream Zen? And regardless of mainstream Zen, does grace play any part in your spiritual life? Is there any correlation between the "grace" that makes up for shortcomings (as in Christian theology) and the "grace" that makes an action refined and beautiful?

Shinsho (Dan)
Sat Today

[Jundo]

Hi Shinsho,

I had to look up a definition of "grace" in a religious sense, so let me know if this is what you have in mind, I turn to the theologians at wikipedia ...

In Western Christian theology, grace has been defined, not as a created substance of any kind, but as "the love and mercy given to us by God because God desires us to have it, not necessarily because of anything we have done to earn it",[1] "Grace is favour, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life."[2] It is understood by Christians to be a spontaneous gift from God to people "generous, free and totally unexpected and undeserved"[3] – that takes the form of divine favor, love, clemency, and a share in the divine life of God.[4]

Hmmm. Well, my Teacher Nishijima used to say that, when we sit Zazen dropping judgments of "good and bad, win and lose," there is something ultimately positive about the universe. We are just so, and that peace and wholeness is our true nature and home.

As well, there is the belief in traditional Buddhism of a certain Karmic justice, in when good and evil intentional actions will ultimately result in good and bad effects in this life or some other. (Personally, I don't know or care much about future lives, but I do see people do harm and create "hells" in this life for themselves and those around them by their bad behavior.)

For anything more, well, people have always turned to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, and especially to Amida Buddha and Kannon, as our saviors and saints, very much with the same attitude of seeking well being in this life and some future life as in other religions. That is the way the average Asian Buddhist person approaches things when they go to a temple. We recently had a thread on this topic.

Prayer?

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16235-Prayer&highlight=amida

I don't do that so much. Personally, I typically practice gratitude for all of it, whatever life hands out, without asking any favors from the universe. I am just grateful that there is a universe and this life to be good in. That is my strength which the world allows me.

Brad's book was okay, but I would not take it so seriously on these questions. It's a kind of "dorm room" philosophizing about what god means to Brad. Find the meaning for oneself!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kotei]

Hi,

I understand 'grace' - in a non-religious way - as an unexpected favour from someone, who has a higher sozial or economic position than the receiver.
In a religious context, this is the same to me. Using this word seems to acknowledge 'god' as a higher-than-me being. 'His grace'.

Looking at the non-religious 'grace', thinking about Dana/Takuhatsu...
giving altruistic... acknowledging that there is no difference, that there is no giving and receiving or both is one action, that is not about the 'graceful' giver and the 'unworthy' receiver.

Well, in my religious thoughts, I have no such understanding of a higher/better, 'graceful', 'monotheistic' being too.
One bright perl. No sight of 'the higher' giving to 'the lower'.

Somehow, my mind got in it's 'scare off the aristocrats' mode. ;-)

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Kyonin]

Hi Shinsho,

I guess the term grace is more suited for theistic philosophies where a person sees to be in the shade of a deity'r good favor. Maybe in some traditions of Buddhism they also have this, but as far as I know, in Zen we don't because we just sit dropping everything... even gods!

Sure, we might turn to Jizo or Kannon for inspiration, but not for asking favors or lighten up life for us.

I may be wrong, of course.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Mp]

Hello Shinsho,

I have seen grace as being kind and gentle in not a religious fashion, but more in the way one behaves. So you could say that one can be "graceful" in their speech, can be "graceful" in their actions. Here in Zen we drop all this as others have already said and we sit beyond grace and non-grace.

Again, I do feel that "grace" can be the way one acts in their life and not something that comes from any religion.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Tokimune]

I know some Christians liken Grace to being opened to the possibilities of gods love, Some forms of Enlightenment could be perceived as this depending on what for enlightenment means to the receiver. To be open and compassionate to all human kind is said to be a form of Enlightenment which can be a accepted as gods grace. Although I find many Christians accept gods grace as a selfish personal thing that isn't shared from loving kindness but conversion and judgement. If "only" you would become "my type of Christian"and open yourself to gods grace. From what I understand Zen focus's less on Divine charity and reward and more on just being, if you become Enlightened either to see through veil that is reality or become an open heart with compassion or all beings you must do so through personal effort and learning. Although not all Buddhist believe this many accept that help comes from the Divine via the Bodhisattva beings sent to help in the quest for Enlightenment. This might be referred to as Grace. As a practitioner of Zen I am gonna "sit" here and find my own way to Enlightenment.

Gassho
Toki.

[Shoka]

I actually just read that book. And I'll agree with Jundo, it was ok but I didn't find the depth I was hoping for. I walked away feeling like it was a book for people who wanted to be Buddhist, but needed to hang onto the idea that there is a God. So it gave them a way to do that.

In relation to grace, I find it really hard to relate "grace" in a religious sense to Buddhism. So when you say "God's grace" to me, I tend to think along the lines of... "By the grace of God the hail storm didn't hit our crops and we didn't lose everything." I don't find that that applies to Buddhism for me so much. Things happened so the hail hit your crops that sucks, still got work to do. Things happened so your crops survived that's great, still got work to do. Either way, you have to continue to move forward. Chop wood, carry water.

Of course I haven't listened to that talk, so it is likely there is something I'm missing. But for me its just life, it goes up and down, and we keep moving forward.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[Shinshou]

Thanks for the replies. They confirmed what I suspected, that the concept of grace doesn't really play a part in Soto Zen. What struck me about the response in the talk was Brad's comment that if there is grace, then if no god, who gives it? Almost instinctively, I thought, "well, I do." In many denominations of Christianity (which I was raised in), the idea is that god requires a perfect life, but we live imperfect lives, and god's grace makes up the difference. I no longer believe in god (or at least see that belief as unimportant and unknowable), but it reminded me of the impossibility of Buddhism implicit in the grave precepts (who can possibly live without killing?) and explicitly in the Bodhisattva vows ("even though this is impossible, I vow to do it"). If the vows ask for the impossible and what I do to fulfill them expectedly and inevitably falls short, can I give myself the grace I need to make up the difference, to say I'm living out the vows even in their impossibility?

That's probably a thought that's produced in part from a Christian upbringing, but it's interesting to me that Okumura says the zazen is a combination of vow and repentance.

Shinsho (Dan)
Sat Today

[Amelia]

I have a deal with "God": If I'm kind and compassionate, we're cool, right?

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Oheso]

I’m reading Meido Moore’s book “The Rinzai Way” now and recently read a passage that reminded me of (my understanding of) the Christian concept of grace as being an unearned “gift” from God, -or finding oneself (rather remarkably) to be on the receiving end of an overwhelmingly beneficent exchange with the Divine, with “The Way Things Are” or what I might now be inclined to call the Dharma. In a chapter discussing whether any given student is “qualified” to walk a spiritual path he says a couple interesting things that I think sound a lot like what I think Christians would describe as grace:

“ . . . we are all human beings who have encountered the Buddhadharma. It is thus clear that each of us already . . . have a deep karmic relationship to the teachings leading to liberation. . . .

There is no need to worry about whether our capacities are seemingly lesser or greater. Our situation is, in fact, fortunate in an almost miraculous way.”

Indeed. Miraculously fortunate. (emphasis mine)

gassho, O, who, today, sat.

[Rendulic]

I don't think "Grace" has to be religious at all. It is merely the adjective describing an act or provision for which "Gratitude" is the appropriate response. Whether it's god's grace, Thor's grace, the universe's grace or my wife's grace, they would all be met with gratitude.

Gassho, Michael

Sat Today

[Shinshou]

I don't think "Grace" has to be religious at all. It is merely the adjective describing an act or provision for which "Gratitude" is the appropriate response. Whether it's god's grace, Thor's grace, the universe's grace or my wife's grace, they would all be met with gratitude.

Yes, even gratitude toward ourselves, which is what I was imagining.

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

[Mitka]

Interesting question. Grace in the theistic paradigm is largely about being forgiven for our sins, becoming free from our pasts so to say. Zen seems to offer just that, a recognition that each moment is a gift, that the past is the past and it doesn't have to hold the present ransom, that whatever we did in the past or whatever are shortcoming in the present, these things do not define who we are, they are just clouds, but behind them our true selves shine, no matter the weather.

[Troy]

Interesting question. Grace in the theistic paradigm is largely about being forgiven for our sins, becoming free from our pasts so to say. Zen seems to offer just that, a recognition that each moment is a gift, that the past is the past and it doesn't have to hold the present ransom, that whatever we did in the past or whatever are shortcoming in the present, these things do not define who we are, they are just clouds, but behind them our true selves shine, no matter the weather.

Beautifully said [emoji4]


Sat2day