Whats the difference...?

[dharmasponge]

Hi everyone, I'm still lurking....and practising hard!

I think we're all agreed that in whatever tradition we sit in - from Theravada to Vajrayana and everything in between - that grasping at a 'self' that exists in the way it appears is at the root of all our delusions. Please do correct me if I am generalising too much, but having spoken to many long terms practitioners and scholars this seems o be the crux of the matter - albeit dressed in different garbs!

Like the metaphor about the child from a barren woman (ie. it simply does not exist) the self is equally non-existent. So, when we sit and either do or not do as the case may be, are we not merely swapping one identity for another? Are we not substituting 'me' the psychotherapist for 'me' the 'Zazen(ist)....then again for something else. Round and Round again....? No change and nothing changing.....still deluded, still believing in fantasies and still experiencing Dukkha!

How does this get us closer to experiencing the FACT of how we DO exist as oppose to how we appear to exist? Am I not merely moving the furniture around in the prison cell rather than walking through the door of liberation (...pft, that was a bit fluffy....but you get the gist?)

Thanks,

Tony

#sat_today

[Kokuu]

So, when we sit and either do or not do as the case may be, are we not merely swapping one identity for another? Are we not substituting 'me' the psychotherapist for 'me' the 'Zazen(ist)....then again for something else.

Hi Tony!

Good question.

In my understanding we don't take any identity when we sit, we drop them all. Thinking of yourself as anything when you sit is grasping onto an idea of the self. Let it all fall away.

In normal life we have many identities - father, son, psychotherapist, football player, music fan whatever. These are all descriptions of our relationships to other people, ideas and things we do. None are a complete identity but just helpful labels for other people. Clinging to any of them is unhelpful but also rejecting them is unhelpful too.

There is no prison or door, you are already free. All forms of Buddhist meditation do seem to converge on the fact there is no self to be found. Shikantaza begins and ends with that. No self, just sitting.

Huike said to Bodhidharma, “My mind is anxious. Please pacify it.”
Bodhidharma replied, “Bring me your mind, and I will pacify it.”
Huike said, “Although I’ve sought it, I cannot find it.”
“There,” Bodhidharma replied, “I have pacified your mind.”

As usual, this advice comes with the disclaimer that I am only a priest in training and the above should be taken only as my opinion.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

Hi Tony,

First, the "self" that is Tony is not a solid thing, but a fluid and changing phenomenon ... flowing from Tony the child to Tony the old man, Tony the lover to Tony the football player to Tony the therapist ... just as Kokuu said. I am another flowing phenomenon, temporarily manifesting in time and space like a wave or swirl, call "Jundo."

But there is also a flowing "Self" that is all of the universe, all of reality, beyond Kokuu and Tony and Jundo and stars and grains of sand, while also pouring thoroughly into and as each and all of those. You are the whole universe momentarily "Tony-ing" ... Tonying as the lover, the therapist, the child, the Tonying old man. Because this Self (which also is not a static thing, but a great fecund flowing wholeness I sometimes refer to as the dance of the universe) is beyond all separation and division, it is also free of conflict, lack, birth and death. However, because it is simultaneously manifesting as our world of separation and division, it is also all conflict, surplus and lack, birth and death. Thus, for example, there is birth and death yet no birth and no death, etc. (like waves that come and go, yet the underlying sea flows on and on).

And since Jundo is the selfing Self, and Tony is the selfing Self ... I am just you and you are too.

In Zazen, we exude all these facets of who we are.

I came across an unusual paper in Scientific American today. I don't vouch for this, nor is it particularly Buddhism. However, the proposal is close enough to what we are discussing that it might give you a sense of one way to see this ...

Scientific American: Could Multiple Personality Disorder Explain Life, the Universe and Everything?

A new paper argues that the condition now known as “Dissociative Identity Disorder” might help us understand the fundamental nature of reality

...

And here is where dissociation comes in. We know empirically from DID that consciousness can give rise to many operationally distinct centers of concurrent experience, each with its own personality and sense of identity. Therefore, if something analogous to DID happens at a universal level, the one universal consciousness could, as a result, give rise to many alters with private inner lives like yours and ours. As such, we may all be alters—dissociated personalities—of universal consciousness.

Moreover, as we’ve seen earlier, there is something dissociative processes look like in the brain of a patient with DID. So, if some form of universal-level DID happens, the alters of universal consciousness must also have an extrinsic appearance. We posit that this appearance is life itself: metabolizing organisms are simply what universal-level dissociative processes look like.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...?sf192035709=1

The universe may really be a bit crazy after all.

Gassho, Jundo Alter

SatTodayLAH

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Kokuu!

....

In my understanding we don't take any identity when we sit, we drop them all. Thinking of yourself as anything when you sit is grasping onto an idea of the self. Let it all fall away.

....but then aren't we just another self <I have dropped everything 'self'>?

I struggle with how substituting one self for another fits with the initial premise that falling for the illusion of self is the fulcrum of the 'problem'. Unless one doesn't think there isn't a problem in which case no need to sit....ever.

_/\_

[Shonin]

Thanks Kokuu!





....but then aren't we just another self <I have dropped everything 'self'>?

I struggle with how substituting one self for another fits with the initial premise that falling for the illusion of self is the fulcrum of the 'problem'. Unless one doesn't think there isn't a problem in which case no need to sit....ever.

_/\_

I'm probably mistaken here but I think the difference is "self" the you, me, Jundo, Kokuu. And "Self" that Jundo mentions which is what is left when we drop the little self.
I suppose one could say it's another self. But I think of it as the absence. In zazen we drop the little self for the big Self. The big Self is the entirety of existence.

The "problem" is that we have become deluded into thinking the little self is all there is. But the little self is not Truth. So we work to undo the actual problem and get back to Original Face/ Buddha Nature/Self.

But that's just my view of it and I can be way off.


Dave _/\_ SAT

[Jundo]

....but then aren't we just another self <I have dropped everything 'self'>?

Yes. The "Face Before Mother and Father Were Born" True Self I described. So, it is kind of our "non-self" (small s) that is thus our Big Self (Big S). This Self is beyond all division and conflict, birth and death.

By the way, in Zazen, we can (and usually do) experience both at once .... self and Self ... sometimes more one than the other, sometimes only one but not the other ... even though they are precisely each other!

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

I suppose one could say it's another self. But I think of it as the absence. In zazen we drop the little self for the big Self. The big Self is the entirety of existence.

Well, Big Self is not a fixed thing, but I also think it misleading to call it an "absence." The name for it, "emptiness," is also rather misleading for this reason. I like something like the Dance of Fertile Flowing Wholeness that flows in, through and as all things that manifest in this world.

The "problem" is that we have become deluded into thinking the little self is all there is. But the little self is not Truth. So we work to undo the actual problem and get back to Original Face/ Buddha Nature/Self.

I think you have it. We are usually trapped and pulled around by the selfish little self, with all its wants, disappointments, fears and such. The Wholeness of Big Self is free of all that because, since there are not divisions and separate things, nothing can be lacking, in conflict, and there is not even death to fear (nor birth either!).

However, it is also wrong to say that "little self" is only "not Truth." Why? Because, once we realize that Big Self and little self are not two, then little self is reinvigorated. It is the old "mountains are mountains, then mountains are not mountains, then mountains are mountains again." One realizes the freedom of Big Self while still living as little self, but hopefully this time now better able not to be trapped and pulled around by little self's mind games and tricks.

Zen really ain't rocket science.

Gassho, J

[Shinshi]

Thanks Kokuu!





....but then aren't we just another self <I have dropped everything 'self'>?

I struggle with how substituting one self for another fits with the initial premise that falling for the illusion of self is the fulcrum of the 'problem'. Unless one doesn't think there isn't a problem in which case no need to sit....ever.

_/\_

This is how I think about no-self at this point in my learning: When we look deeply at the nature at the entity we think of as Self, when we strip away all the constitute elements, there is nothing independent left. No Self left. The notion of independent Self is an illusion. And, yet, at the same time, of course there is a Self - which is made up of all those elements we stripped away. So we are both Self and no-Self at the same time. One coin, two sides. No-Self is a perspective of the truth. And Self is an experience not a thing.

What we can do is let drop our focus/awareness of Self. Not a substitution but a letting go. We let Self and not-Self ebb and flow like waves washing up and away on the beach.

But what do I know.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

edited to add: While I was typing Jundo made two really great posts. I would focus there.

[Kyonin]

Hi Tony,

I know I might be way off with this, but this is how I understand the self. There is a Self which is part of life, just an expression of existence. This Self is what unites us with everything around and it doesn't need our intellect or language to exist. We are just part of the ecosystem and go about life doing whatever living beings do to contribute to Life itself.

And then there's the self, with is just an illusion formed up of the tales we tell ourselves and we decide to hold on to. "I am an architect", "I like peanuts", "I have to deliver the TPS report", "I like rugby but not football". This self we need to navigate the human world and to chisel our personality.

So when we sit, we suspend the self for a bit, to move and to be the Self. Hope that makes sense

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Shonin]

Well, Big Self is not a fixed thing, but I also think it misleading to call it an "absence." The name for it, "emptiness," is also rather misleading for this reason. I like something like the Dance of Fertile Flowing Wholeness that flows in, through and as all things that manifest in this world.



I think you have it. We are usually trapped and pulled around by the selfish little self, with all its wants, disappointments, fears and such. The Wholeness of Big Self is free of all that because, since there are not divisions and separate things, nothing can be lacking, in conflict, and there is not even death to fear (nor birth either!).

However, it is also wrong to say that "little self" is only "not Truth." Why? Because, once we realize that Big Self and little self are not two, then little self is reinvigorated. It is the old "mountains are mountains, then mountains are not mountains, then mountains are mountains again." One realizes the freedom of Big Self while still living as little self, but hopefully this time now better able not to be trapped and pulled around by little self's mind games and tricks.

Zen really ain't rocket science.

Gassho, J

Thanks for that clarification.

Dave _/\_ SAT

[Jundo]

This is how I think about no-self at this point in my learning: When we look deeply at the nature at the entity we think of as Self, when we strip away all the constitute elements, there is nothing independent left. No Self left. The notion of independent Self is an illusion. And, yet, at the same time, of course there is a Self - which is made up of all those elements we stripped away. So we are both Self and no-Self at the same time. One coin, two sides. No-Self is a perspective of the truth. And Self is an experience not a thing.

What we can do is let drop our focus/awareness of Self. Not a substitution but a letting go. We let Self and not-Self ebb and flow like waves washing up and away on the beach.

But what do I know.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

More than this, know the Flowing Fecund Wholeness beyond all division, birth and death ... True Self. What you write only unwraps the onion ... but does not find the Onion Field!

Perhaps you are a "Hinayanist" (they sometimes seem to emphasize peeling down the onion of the self without much about what is thus found), because in Mahayana we have the Dharmakhaya, Buddha Nature, the Big B Buddha, the Whole Enchilada, the Onion Field!

Unless you get this point, you can't pierce all those Koans we are dancing with in the "Treeleaf Wordless Bookclub" these weeks. That may be why you struggle with them.

(And more than just the intellectual understanding, our Zazen is meant to help us known and experience this in the bones too).

(By the way, your use of "little s" and "Big S" is all wrong too! )

Gassho, J

STLAH

[Jundo]

Hi Tony,

I know I might be way off with this, but this is how I understand the self. There is a Self which is part of life, just an expression of existence. This Self is what unites us with everything around and it doesn't need our intellect or language to exist. We are just part of the ecosystem and go about life doing whatever living beings do to contribute to Life itself.

Yes, it is all that. But it is also everything and then some, from the Big Bang to beyond, from the bottom of the sea to all we see to every atom of our body. It is us, it is the ecosystem, it is the smallest grain of sand, our every thought, the wind and rain, on this world and all others.

This is like the Koans we have recently been dancing in the Book of Serenity ...

A monk asked Unmon, "What is meant by the pronouncement 'to go beyond the Buddha and
the patriarchs'?" Unmon said, "Poor rice cake.

Gassho, J

[Shinshi]

More than this, know the Flowing Fecund Wholeness beyond all division, birth and death ... True Self. What you write only unwraps the onion ... but does not find the Onion Field!

Perhaps you are a "Hinayanist" (they sometimes seem to emphasize peeling down the onion of the self without much about what is thus found), because in Mahayana we have the Dharmakhaya, Buddha Nature, the Big B Buddha, the Whole Enchilada, the Onion Field!

Unless you get this point, you can't pierce all those Koans we are dancing with in the "Treeleaf Wordless Bookclub" these weeks. That may be why you struggle with them.

(And more than just the intellectual understanding, our Zazen is meant to help us known and experience this in the bones too).

(By the way, your use of "little s" and "Big S" is all wrong too! )

Gassho, J

STLAH

Thank you Jundo. I have to admit that at times I feel like I am overstepping my bounds when I post about such things. But my hope is that when I post things that are incorrect they will be corrected and I will continue to learn and grow. So I am very grateful for your attempts to get me pointed down the right road.

The little s and big S aren't intentional. I realized at the end that I had used big and little indiscriminately, I tried to change them all to the same case but I guess I missed some.

Thank you again for your teaching.



Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

The little s and big S aren't intentional. I realized at the end that I had used big and little indiscriminately, I tried to change them all to the same case but I guess I missed some.

Yes, the s and S thing is just a convention I use, not so important. Sometimes Zen folks talk about the "Absolute and relative," "Sameness and difference" "Buddha and sentient beings," "Host and guest" "Straight and crooked" "Ocean and waves" and all kinds of inadequate labels and symbols to point at this, fingers pointing at the moon. One is just the other, not two. In fact, we talk about (like Dogen) the moon and the reflection of the moon in all the drops of dew on the grass. There are all those Koans we are studying which draw lines or circles in the air, or talk about "Buddha is a shit stick" (the whole and sacred is precisely the most ordinary and profane in all the stuff of the world). All pointing out the same.

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

Gassho, J

STLAH

[dharmasponge]

I'm probably mistaken here but I think the difference is "self" the you, me, Jundo, Kokuu. And "Self" that Jundo mentions which is what is left when we drop the little self.
I suppose one could say it's another self. But I think of it as the absence. In zazen we drop the little self for the big Self. The big Self is the entirety of existence.

The "problem" is that we have become deluded into thinking the little self is all there is. But the little self is not Truth. So we work to undo the actual problem and get back to Original Face/ Buddha Nature/Self.

But that's just my view of it and I can be way off.


Dave _/\_ SAT

Big Self ....sounds like a 'soul' <tongue firmly in cheek> 😉