Meditation Question.

[Jundo]

Re: Meditation Question.

Hi Kirk,

Well, the issue is not only about falling asleep. It is also about not closing off the world (which, after all, is not apart from us), being open and aware. So, it is best to keep the eyes open.

However, I have come across two Soto teachers recently who allow closed eyes sometimes for very experienced practitioners (I know "Big Mind" Genpo sometimes does. I am trying to recall the other. It truly is uncommon.). So, I will make a special (partial) exception in your case, given your condition.

However However, I would like to ask you to mix the two, and do open your eyes sometimes (maybe half the time). My reason is the following statements:

it is like a gray TV screen with static, and is disturbing. ... So while I've often tried to sit eyes-open, I find that I can't really do it well; my vision is too distracting.

"Disturbing" "well" and "distracting" are mental judgments and reactions to the event. It maybe is no different from sitting with a bit of noise outside or a fly that is buzzing around. It depends on the degree, perhaps, of the disturbance. I want you to sit with your eyes open half of the time, and ask yourself (in a Zen, non-asking way) how much of your judgment of "disturbing/well/distracting" is but your mind reaching those conclusions.

Then, try dropping all idea of "disturbing/well/distracting", and "just sit" with the static and fuzz.

Let me know how that works after trying it a few times.

Gassho, Jundo

[Alberto]

Re: Meditation Question.

Cyber-Hojo-san said

Second, I say that our eyes are focused (meaning, not fuzzed over, or crossed, or "out of focus" in that way), but we are looking at everything and nothing. Yes, they will wander around sometimes, or rest on a single point sometimes. But we do not let the mind become tangled in a chain of thoughts by that.

I have a question: what is intrinsically wrong with having eyes out of focus? I think that is preferable to closing them in the same way that sitting seiza is preferable to sitting on a chair: none is optimal, but it is always better to do the best we can.

Consider this: for hundreds of years, before eyeglasses became a thing for the commoners, thousands of practicioners sat (and lived) without the benefit of a "focused" sight. I bet you money that not all buddhas and patriarchs had 20/20 vision. You don't need focus, but a little bit of light will keep the reticular activating system in the brainstem going.

I've sat with and without my glasses, with focus and unfocused vision, and I'm unable to tell the difference. Yes, the vision stays unfocused for a little while but that is exactly the same as having a numb leg: reversible and innocuous.

What do you think about this?

Gassho

[Ryumon]

Re: Meditation Question.

Let me know how that works after trying it a few times.

OK. I'll try this for a while and see what happens.

Kirk

[chicanobudista]

Re: Meditation Question.

Hi Kirk,

Well, the issue is not only about falling asleep. It is also about not closing off the world (which, after all, is not apart from us), being open and aware. So, it is best to keep the eyes open.

For reference, this is one source where I got the answer reg. "closing the eyes" during meditation:

How to Do Zazen from Soto-Zen.net

Keep your eyes slightly open. Cast them downward at about a 45-degree angle. Without focusing on any particular thing, let everything have its place in your field of vision. If your eyes are closed, you will easily drift into drowsiness or daydreaming.

[chicanobudista]

Re: Meditation Question.

To recapitulate, no problem then with letting eyes wander w/i the angle range? :| :?:

[Jundo]

Re: Meditation Question.

I have a question: what is intrinsically wrong with having eyes out of focus? I think that is preferable to closing them in the same way that sitting seiza is preferable to sitting on a chair: none is optimal, but it is always better to do the best we can.
...
I've sat with and without my glasses, with focus and unfocused vision, and I'm unable to tell the difference. Yes, the vision stays unfocused for a little while but that is exactly the same as having a numb leg: reversible and innocuous.

What do you think about this?

Gassho

Hi Alberto,

No, nothing wrong with having one's glasses off (some folks sit with them perched on the nose, while some folks find glasses annoying. I sit both ways, glasses off or on). It is more a matter of not finding what is in our vision to be disturbing, and that is something apart from whether our eyes are focused or not, more a matter of our judgments and mental reactions. Focused is not ultimately better or worse than unfocused. Either way is fine.

However, I have heard from folks who are so intent on not staring at anything that their vision crosses, they try not to blink and allow the eyes to go dry (or they let the eyes get all teary), they think it better that the eyes are out of focus than in focus, they get dizzy. That is not it. As with our breathing (which in Shikantaza practice, we allow to find its own natural rhythm without extremes), we let the eyes find their natural place and focus.

Also, our philosophy of "in the world yet seeing through the world" means we should keep our eyes clear and focused as much as we can. We see everything and nothing, without judgment or categorization.

Erik, yes, the eyes may wander within the angle range (by the way, 45 degrees is a suggestion too ... not a hard and fast rule. It is not that 44 degrees is delusion, but 45 degrees is enlightenment! :wink: )

Does that help? Here is Nishijima Roshi's first teacher, "Homeless" Kodo:

[chicanobudista]

Re: Meditation Question.

Erik, yes, the eyes may wander within the angle range (by the way, 45 degrees is a suggestion too ... not a hard and fast rule. It is not the 44 degrees is delusion, but 45 degrees is enlightenment! :wink: )

Thanks!

I was going to hire these guys to measure my 45 degree angle:



Thanks for all the help. It really has clarified my main question. Gassho.

[AlanLa]

Re: Meditation Question.

Kirk,
I may have a solution for you. What about an eye patch used just during zazen? This would seem to adhere to the spirit of keeping eyes open but still allow you to not be so distracted by the unusual vision issues. However, Jundo's point about needing to learn to not be bothered by your vision issues is a good one, so maybe you don't use the patch all the time, or maybe you occasionally switch the eye patch between your good and not so good eye. Just a thought.

AL