Zazen Is Good For Nothing

[Ryudo]

Deep bows


Gassho
Ryudo/SatToday

[Daitetsu]

Just lovely!
Thanks so much for sharing!


Gassho,

大哲

Sat2day

[Shinshi]

I stumbled across this related interview with Shohaku Okumura at Bicycle Magazine. Also entitled Good for Nothing.

https://tricycle.org/magazine/good-nothing/

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Michael Joseph]

Gassho,

Michael

STLAH

[Kyonin]

I receive this teaching in gratitude

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Michael Joseph]

I do have one question regarding something that Okumura Roshi said. He stated, "We don't listen to anything. We don't pay attention." He used birds' singing as an example. I thought that we were supposed to maintain open awareness during zazen. What is the distinction between open awareness (if I'm right about that) and the listening that Okumura is talking about? Is there an imply difference here between passive acknowledgement of birdsong and active engagement with birdsong? Is this similar to acknowledging or recognizing thoughts during zazen versus engaging with thoughts during zazen?

Gassho,

Michael

STLAH

[Jundo]

I do have one question regarding something that Okumura Roshi said. He stated, "We don't listen to anything. We don't pay attention." He used birds' singing as an example. I thought that we were supposed to maintain open awareness during zazen. What is the distinction between open awareness (if I'm right about that) and the listening that Okumura is talking about? Is there an imply difference here between passive acknowledgement of birdsong and active engagement with birdsong? Is this similar to acknowledging or recognizing thoughts during zazen versus engaging with thoughts during zazen?

Gassho,

Michael

STLAH

Hi Michael,

I am not sure about your question. Okumura is describing "open awareness." One hears, but does not engage, does not pay attention, "pays no nevermind."

I am not sure what you mean by "passive acknowledgement". We don't particularly acknowledge thoughts. Thought just come and go.

Can you be more specific?

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Michael Joseph]

Hi Michael,

I am not sure about your question. Okumura is describing "open awareness." One hears, but does not engage, does not pay attention, "pays no nevermind."

I am not sure what you mean by "passive acknowledgement". We don't particularly acknowledge thoughts. Thought just come and go.

Can you be more specific?

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Hey Jundo,

Thanks for the reply. You've answered my poorly-worded question. I have to admit, though, that sometimes when I sitting, I don't know whether I'm openly aware of the birds' singing (a frequent occurrence for me) or if I'm engaging with it. I know that I should let the matter go and just sit, but I still struggle with "am I doing this right" mind. It's a hard habit for me to break. I've spent so much of my life trying to be "right" that letting go of right and wrong is proving to be something of an obstacle.

Gassho,

Michael

STLAH

[Shinshou]

"I became free from my desire to be a good Buddhist."

We have to "face the dead end." Right on.

Shinshou
Sat today

[Jundo]

Hey Jundo,

Thanks for the reply. You've answered my poorly-worded question. I have to admit, though, that sometimes when I sitting, I don't know whether I'm openly aware of the birds' singing (a frequent occurrence for me) or if I'm engaging with it. I know that I should let the matter go and just sit, but I still struggle with "am I doing this right" mind. It's a hard habit for me to break. I've spent so much of my life trying to be "right" that letting go of right and wrong is proving to be something of an obstacle.

Gassho,

Michael

STLAH

Not thinking about something is not thinking about it. For example, if I now mention the back of your knee, suddenly you are thinking about it. What were you doing a second before I mentioned it? It was there, your body felt it, but you were paying it no nevermind. LIkewise for many things in your hearing and field of vision right now that you hear and see, but don't notice that you hear and see.

So, just hear the bird but don't think about it. And if you do happen to think, "Oh, bird singing," immediately let it go and get back to just sitting.

It ain't hard, you are overthinking this.

So, no wrong or right Zazen ... but just let the bird sing, and don't mess with it.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shinshi]

Hey Jundo,

Thanks for the reply. You've answered my poorly-worded question. I have to admit, though, that sometimes when I sitting, I don't know whether I'm openly aware of the birds' singing (a frequent occurrence for me) or if I'm engaging with it. I know that I should let the matter go and just sit, but I still struggle with "am I doing this right" mind. It's a hard habit for me to break. I've spent so much of my life trying to be "right" that letting go of right and wrong is proving to be something of an obstacle.

Gassho,

Michael

STLAH

If you are thinking about how to do it Right, you are probably doing it Wrong.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Michael Joseph]

Not thinking about something is not thinking about it. For example, if I now mention the back of your knee, suddenly you are thinking about it. What were you doing a second before I mentioned it? It was there, your body felt it, but you were paying it no nevermind. LIkewise for many things in your hearing and field of vision right now that you hear and see, but don't notice that you hear and see.

So, just hear the bird but don't think about it. And if you do happen to think, "Oh, bird singing," immediately let it go and get back to just sitting.

It ain't hard, you are overthinking this.

So, no wrong or right Zazen ... but just let the bird sing, and don't mess with it.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Thank you, Jundo. I'll remember to let be, and when I don't let be, I'll let go.

Gassho,

Michael

STLAH

[Sekiyuu]

Thanks for the answer, Jundo, and thanks Michael for asking the question. I had thought the same thing.

Zazen being "good for nothing" is puzzling to me at this point in my practice, though. The more I sit, the more I am aware of things that I'm able to carry over to my life outside of zazen, and thus I feel like I've attained something. I didn't set out to attain anything, it just happened... this seems to be in line with what Okumura is saying if I understand correctly.

But, did I actually attain anything, or am I just fooling myself? Is zazen good for something, but only in retrospect? Is this what's meant by "attainment through non-attainment" or am I mistaken?

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Jundo]

Thanks for the answer, Jundo, and thanks Michael for asking the question. I had thought the same thing.

Zazen being "good for nothing" is puzzling to me at this point in my practice, though. The more I sit, the more I am aware of things that I'm able to carry over to my life outside of zazen, and thus I feel like I've attained something. I didn't set out to attain anything, it just happened... this seems to be in line with what Okumura is saying if I understand correctly.

But, did I actually attain anything, or am I just fooling myself? Is zazen good for something, but only in retrospect? Is this what's meant by "attainment through non-attainment" or am I mistaken?

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Of course Zen is "good for something!" It revolutionizes our lives.

However, remember that the key is to know peace and wholeness. When we just sit, seeking nothing more, without goal, it is light years away from just sitting complacent, stewing in our juices, wallowing.

Rather, we sit in the Wholeness and Fulfillment of the simple of act of sitting, with nothing lacking and nothing more to do.

Then, getting up for the cushion, returning to holes in need of filling and endless things to do, we know "nothing lacking as holes that need filling" and "nothing more to do as we do the endless things to do."

Understand?

Keep sitting, explore this more in your life.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Entai]

Thank you for sharing this. I'm very grateful for the questions and answers as well. I often wonder if I'm "doing it right". Thank you for the teaching and always useful reminders.

Gassho, Entai
St /lah

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