Posture: Tongue and jaw "too tight"??

[Jika]

Hi all,

I have been told by a physical therapist that I clench my jaw too much, the jaw muscles are too tight.
(Why care? I have a muscle condition (spasticity) that gets worse when there is high tension in groups of muscles.)

He asked me to sit comfortably for the examination, and I sat the way (jaw-wise) I sit in zazen, mouth closed with the tongue at the roof and the teeth touching (not on purpose, it was just what I did when asked to "sit".).
It does not feel like clenching my jaw, but of course it is not as relaxed as having your mouth hanging open...

I've noticed that while commuting or when lying in bed (on my side) I always take this position, can't say if I have always done so or if it started with zazen.
Now I'm trying to un-learn this to see if it helps with my muscle issues.

So, my questions:
Have any of you noticed doing this (keeping their mouth in zazen posture by default), and have you seen negative results?
Does anyone here sit zazen differently (teeth not touching)?
Do I remember right that this is considered the correct posture in Zen, or did I invent the "teeth touching" along the way??

I have tried to let there be a tiny bit of space between my teeth, and it works, as long as the tongue is not hanging (or I'll need to swallow all the time).

Thank you for sharing your experience.
Gassho
Jika
sattoday

[Rich]

There are places in my body that tend to express tension. One of them is the jaw area. When I am aware of that, I simply relax. The tongue touching my palette with mouth closed does not contribute to the tension.

SAT today

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[Jishin]

I would read up on bruxism and mouth guard.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kokuu]

Hi Jika

I can understand this. I don't think my spasticity is the same as yours but my muscles do tense easily and do not relax well.

My jaw is one area this happens but it tends, for me, to be a sign that there is tension elsewhere in the body. When I sit, the important thing for me is to make sure my shoulders are loose. If they are, there tends to be less tension elsewhere, including in my jaw.

I don't know if that helps and hope you can find an answer.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[babyleaf]

Hi Jika,

I can't say I have considered the position of the teeth and tongue much when I sit (maybe I should?). But I have definitely noticed myself clenching my jaws during Zazen (and off the cushion) as well as feeling tension in general. So far the way I've been going about it is that, IF I notice it during Zazen, I recognize "it is ok to relax".

I have a feeling that, just like there is no right or wrong way to do Zazen, whatever is natural + "it's ok to relax" will lead to the letting go of any unnecessary habits we've developed.

I hope the tension subsides a little!

Gassho
Gaby
Sat Today

[Mp]

Hello Jika,

When I sit I have the tip of my tongue slightly touching the back of my teeth at the top of my mouth. So right where your teeth attached to the roof of your mouth. I don't press hard, it is a light touch, just like the light touch of the thumbs withy our zazen hand mudra.

The light touch does help in keeping the jaw and face relaxed. I hope this helps. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

You see, after all these years of Treeleaf, still new questions!

I second what people are saying. My teeth close, but not tight. The goal for all the muscles of the face and body, not just the jaw, is relaxed, but not slack nor too tight. That includes the shoulders, arms and all the rest. Relax. Sitting upright, but neither rigid nor limp.

When I sat Zazen in China and Vietnam, the sitters engaged in facial rubbing and giving self-massaging of the arms, shoulders, legs for a minute or so before the sit. They just use the hands and palms to rub the facial muscles for a few seconds. I have not seen this in Japanese Soto, but I thought it an interesting idea.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jakuden]

I have been puzzled in Sesshin because my jaw aches sometimes even though I am careful not to clench it. I think for me too it reflects tension elsewhere.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jika]

Thank you all very much!
Will try your suggestions.

Gassho,
Jika
sattoday

[Shinshou]

I have a slight overbite, which is normal. When I close my teeth, that means pulling my lower jaw backward so the teeth can fully close, which creates quite a bit of muscular activity and tension, as that's not a normal resting position. So when I sit, I don't close my teeth - they don't touch. I put my tongue at the the back of where my upper teeth meet my gum, and relax. The "suction" of having my tongue there keeps my mouth shut. That's the only way I know to be comfortable without creating excess tension, since the lower jaw has to be pulled back for all the teeth to meet.

Shinshou
Sat Today

[Jinyo]

Thank you all very much!
Will try your suggestions.

Gassho,
Jika
sattoday

Hi Jika,

I have TMJ and have to be careful not to tense my jaw. Everyone's teeth/jawline is different - I think it might be best to avoid teeth touching if you grind (bruxism as Jishin mentioned) as it will only make the tension worse.

I find gently placing the tip of my tongue where my front teeth meet reminds me to relax but I'm sure others might find differently.

Gassho

Jinyo

ST

[Kyonin]

Hi Jika,

My jaw used to be tense all the time, but my orthodontist told me a few years back that it was because I had a big problem with my jaw due to an undetected infection.

After she fixed my jaw I am able now to keep my tongue in zazen position all day long... except when I sleep.

Still trying to fix that, although it doesn't seem to be a big problem.

I guess to be relaxed is also an exercise in keeping ourselves in the present moment.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Jika]

Thank you.

Shinshou, you describe what I experience.
Jinyo, Kyonin, I think there's nothing wrong with my teeth: I asked my dentist when I had a check-up two weeks ago.
He said I don't grind (he would be able to see that), but people can "press" instead of grind (where he would expect other symptoms like pain in the head or jaw, which I don't have).

Probably I have misunderstood the "teeth resting upon each other".
I've tried sitting with only my front teeth touching, the tongue in place, and tucking my chin a bit, which means straightening my neck.
It works fine, feels comfortable but not too slack, and is also good for resting/sleeping.

Gassho,
Jika
sattoday, lah

[Geika]

I'm pretty sure that everyone has different jaws. I used to think about how to place my teeth a lot, and it would occupy most of my sitting when I first started. I had read many times, "Teeth touching." Eventually I just started to forget about it and naturally my teeth drifted apart with my tongue resting without strain against the back of my top teeth, I think like how Shingen described. Perhaps just try not to think about it, and see where your teeth go. Or if you are able to drop it and suddenly realize you are strain-free, what is your mouth doing?

Gassho, sat today, lah