Kapleau's "Three Pillars" & personalities of experience

[Jundo]

Been meaning to ask for a while but are these "jackets" above and as you wear at Zazenkai, any different from Gi tops. They look the same to me, I only asked as I threw all my old Karate clothing away as part of the clearance before moving to France. Mind you my old black Gi was a very very heavy cotton, close to Judo/Jujitsu weight but absorb a lot of impacts when competing.

It is a version of Samu-e, cut basically like a Karate Gi.

But, you know, since we are all sitting together in the privacy of our homes, I don't care what you wear ... and you can even come NAKED for all I care (just just the camera off please during Zazenkai. I often say that we "sit with anything, " but naked Seishin might be a bit much).

In all seriousness, every few weeks or so, we have a "casual Friday" Zazenkai here at Treeleaf, and even I show up in shorts and a Pink Floyd T-Shirt. The reason is specifically to make the point that it is not about the clothes. (The only reason I dress in formal robes for the monthly Zazenkai is out of respect for Tradition).

Gassho, J

[Seishin]

naked Seishin might be a bit much

What do they say ? Viewer discretion, most certainly in that case. I'll stick to my biker/band Ts and shorts / jogging bottoms thank you.................can't distress my dog Sophie you know.

[Sekiyuu]

Thanks, Jundo! I didn't realize that these zendo rules were common.

They might find some folks not right for the Practice, so not extend membership. As we have been discussing, the Kapleau folks often do a rather intense Zazen form, or there may be other factors. What makes you think that a Zen group should admit everyone? Bodhidharma waited for the guy to cut his arm off first (in the legend ... just a legend ). Who says they have to be welcoming?

That's a good point. As a private organization, they can make their own rules. I simply had the expectation in my mind that any kind of Buddhist organization would be as welcoming as possible (dana, right?), and other sitting groups I can find in the area (Zen or not) allow anyone to show up to regular sittings, with some basic rules and suggestions to just come early if you don't know anything about meditation.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Ryushi]

I simply had the expectation in my mind that any kind of Buddhist organization would be as welcoming as possible

This would be my expectation as well, but perhaps that may be a particularly Western Zen way of thinking. I'm beginning to come to understand that Buddhist practice is wide and varied, in some cases very different from the specific traditions I've been exposed to.

Recently I stumbled on a Facebook group titled "Western Buddhism". A couple friends were members, so I thought I'd take a look. The rules posted were, shall we say, oddly specific and gave a less-than-welcoming impression. I can only assume the rules were built up over time and each item probably coincided with some past conflict in the group. (If you're curious, you can read a copy of the rules here.)

Any group has to be concerned to a greater or lesser degree with "orthodoxy" or maintaining a focus. I have seen this here at Treeleaf in just the five or six months I've been following the forums. Which is why we need reminders like this from time to time.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Recently I stumbled on a Facebook group titled "Western Buddhism". A couple friends were members, so I thought I'd take a look. The rules posted were, shall we say, oddly specific and gave a less-than-welcoming impression. I can only assume the rules were built up over time and each item probably coincided with some past conflict in the group. (If you're curious, you can read a copy of the rules here.)

As a participant in a couple of Zen Facebook groups, I can say that those rules are not unreasonable for the most part, and represent real issues (such as people posting on behalf of various questionable cults, like the fellow who claims to be Maitreya and Jesus come back to earth, or New Age gurus, "Fake Buddha Quotes" ... here is a wonderful site about that, not to say that some of the "fake quotes" are not nice sentiments ... )

https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/

In any case, no, Zen Teachers in China and Japan typically made folks work a little bit before letting people in. It actually has become a ritual. At any Zen monastery in Japan, they will leave the new monk-to-be waiting to enter outside the door, ignored, in this position ... for hours or a couple of days, as monks periodically come out and berate the person trying to get them to leave.



Then, before one can enter completely, one is left sitting Zazen morning to night for about a week in "Tangaryo," a special room in which they are left in the same clothes, without a bath, their few belongings in a small bag leaning against the wall. In most cases, it is just a ritual, hazing, and everyone knows the fellow is gonna be let in.
Koun Franz write more about the experience here, if anyone is interested ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14842-Greetings-from-Kakunen-%28Mr-K-%29-now-Training-at-Jyomanji&p=198333&viewfull=1#post198333

At Treeleaf, I am thinking about adding this required ritual for anyone here longer than 6 months ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzBIGv9atPo

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Doshin]

As a participant in a couple of Zen Facebook groups, I can say that those rules are not unreasonable for the most part, and represent real issues (such as people posting on behalf of various questionable cults, like the fellow who claims to be Maitreya and Jesus come back to earth, or New Age gurus, "Fake Buddha Quotes" ... here is a wonderful site about that, not to say that some of the "fake quotes" are not nice sentiments ... )

https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/

In any case, no, Zen Teachers in China and Japan typically made folks work a little bit before letting people in. It actually has become a ritual. At any Zen monastery in Japan, they will leave the new monk-to-be waiting to enter outside the door, ignored, in this position ... for hours or a couple of days, as monks periodically come out and berate the person trying to get them to leave.



Then, before one can enter completely, one is left sitting Zazen morning to night for about a week in "Tangaryo," a special room in which they are left in the same clothes, without a bath, their few belongings in a small bag leaning against the wall. In most cases, it is just a ritual, hazing, and everyone knows the fellow is gonna be let in.
Koun Franz write more about the experience here, if anyone is interested ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14842-Greetings-from-Kakunen-%28Mr-K-%29-now-Training-at-Jyomanji&p=198333&viewfull=1#post198333

At Treeleaf, I am thinking about adding this required ritual for anyone here longer than 6 months ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzBIGv9atPo

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Always thought I was tough...but count me out

Gassho
Doshin
Stlah

[Ryushi]

In any case, no, Zen Teachers in China and Japan typically made folks work a little bit before letting people in.

At least they no longer require the severing of one’s arm!

[Jundo]

At least they no longer require the severing of one’s arm!

Actually, the history of that story is quite interesting. Historians now have strong evidence that it started with a completely different Buddhist priest who, in his biography, lost an arm to robbers. The story was somehow moved to the 2nd Zen Ancestor in China, Hui'ke, and then changed from "robbers" to "sign of determination."

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=x2ZxQk2AfYsC&q=lost+his+arm#v=snippet&q=huike%20lost%20his%20arm&f=false

Kind of a silly story. I guess it explains the astounded look on Bodhidharma's face as he wonders if the cell phone signal will reach to call an ambulance!



If Huike did that, he would belong in a hospital, then a mental hospital.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Seishin]

Time for you to leave Grasshopper ?

DC at his finest and maybe an early subliminal link to my seeking both Martial Arts and Zen Buddhism later in life.

Shall we refer to you as Master Po, Jundo ?

[Tai Shi]

What do you think Jundo of a little book that has colored all of my Zen experience, The Gospel According to Zen, a book which transformed my Zen Consciousness from the Age of 24, and a book I have read and reread as my first opening, a Zen experience, and a Christian Experience as in the New Testament book of Mathew and other Gospels, and Jundo I direct this question to you. I don't think Kapleau's book might have anything to do with the Christian, or Jewish traditions as explained in Isaha and Elijah the book of Mathew being the foundation for a Zen experience in my little book The Gospel According to Zen. I followed my little book with Suzuki's masterful Zen Mind, Beginner Mind, and many years of study including study of St. Francis, The Four Quartets by Eliot, and poetry of St. John of the Cross. I think the "Jesus" experience of salvation for me was preceeded by many years of Christian study including Jewish study of the masterful Man's Search for Meaning by the Jewish victim of Nazi concentration camps, Victor Frankel. I think St. Francis devoted his entire life to such studies and experiences. And, my own Christian "Ah Ha" salvation experience is preceeded with nearly three years of Shikantaza, sometimes several hours a day, and several days in a row, as well as a lifetime of study of the New Testament, and some of the Old Testament. Jundo, what do you think of a comparison of Kaplear's experience and Salvation, and Satori, and remember my Christian experience is very real, without any mind altering, very real salvation as devoted to human welfare. Early in my life I also began nearly 45 years of therpies ending with Dr. Chris Nordgrun, behavoral Christian therapist. I was saved to devote my life to God and people. What do you think of Salvation, Jundo?

Tai Shi
st/lah
Gassho

[Jundo]

Sounds good if its good for you, Tai shi.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Troy]

Yet we have folks who have been around here for years and never even thought of tossing a nickle in the hat. That's not good either.

This spoke to me. I have donated once or twice, but I could have done more. I am not rich, but I can donate a little on a reoccurring basis.


Sat2day

[Jundo]

This spoke to me. I have donated once or twice, but I could have done more. I am not rich, but I can donate a little on a reoccurring basis.


Sat2day

Thank you Troy.

Are donation page puts it this way ...

There are no charges at all for the activities and teachings provided at Treeleaf Sangha, which are each offered free to all who may benefit. No donations are solicited or required. However, if someone wishes to make a voluntary donation to our community, they may do so at the following link with our gratitude. ... [Donations are] with the understanding that people who have little or no money should know especially that it is fine to donate less than such amounts or nothing at all. If one has more money, and feels it is right, one can donate more than such amounts. All donations are completely voluntary, without obligation, according to ability, and as one feels in one’s heart. Newcomers should wait some months until making sure they feel at home in our community before even considering to donate. We leave it to each person to decide.

http://www.treeleaf.org/donations-to-treeleaf-sangha/

Never chased anyone from here for failing to toss a nickle in the bowl. People give and contribute in many different ways.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[sjlabat]

Money is always a 'sticky wicket' in religion. So many instances of corruption (really soul-wrecking stuff) when money - among other matters - is misused. Yet, very little is for 'free'. Im sure an e-sangha, e-community, is not as expensive as a 'brick and mortar' one - but, has expenses nonetheless...
gassho,
sjl
sat,lah