Prayer?

[Tai Shi]

I am not promoting any purchase and in the beautiful poetry of my book; I hope I make it clear that I am grateful for all that has befallen me, that both the bad teaching sacrafice and realizations of love, and ugly in the sober alcoholic who commits suicide, despondency and great celabration, sacrafuce in the love of family and friends, understanding and ignorance in my meditations on gratitude. I trust this book is an epitaph of life that will live after in love of my wife and daughter, sacrafice in my great love of my best friend my wife, and this is the last poem in the book. I show my love every day, and even as we become angry and make-up, we love each other more than eany person or thing, and in this we transend death, and in my books, I live after, and in my daughter, I live after.

Tai Shi
st/lah
Gassho

[Shinshi]

Hi all

For me prayers take a number of forms. One is devotional prayer which is usually directed to the historical Buddha or one of the many Mahayana Bodhisattvas such as Avalokiteshvara/Kannon or Kṣitigarbha/Jizo. This appears to be directed outwardly but I see these figures as representing internal qualities both of ourselves and others. Kannon is a figure of great compassion and by chanting to him/her I am seeking to acknowledge my own compassion and see it also reflected in others.

There are also prayers which we say to give us focus or direction. The Four Vows may be considered this type of prayer as are any verses which express an intention for us to follow a virtuous path. They are reminders to ourselves of what we want to guide our lives. Refuge Prayers fulfil a similar purpose and are directly inwardly.

Petitionary prayers to bodhisattvas are not something I do often, as that does give more of an external focus which we do not tend to use as a modern Zen sangha. However, I would forgive both myself and others for calling for help when times are particularly bad.

Anyway, that is my two cents/pence worth. As a novice priest my understanding is, however, limited and should not be taken as any kind of truth.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

This is just so wonderfully stated. Thank you Kokuu.

There are two instances when folks talk to me about prayers and it happens pretty often (I live in Evangelical Country). One they will say something like in the original post - you should pray more. More often they will ask for prayers for someone that is injured or hurt. I used to spend time trying to explain to them my beliefs and how I viewed prayer, but eventually I came to see that I was kind of making the whole conversation about me.

I now view these interactions as being about people asking for hope or compassion. Even though we practice differently, at the core, it is about wanting the best for others. So now when someone asks for prayers I just agree and offer Metta for the person. I kind of view it as a translation issue. I translate their request in their belief system to the thing as I see analogous in mine.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

I know view these interactions as being about people asking for hope or compassion. Even though we practice differently, at the core, it is about wanting the best for others. So now when someone asks for prayers I just agree and offer Metta for the person. I kind of view it as a translation issue. I translate their request in their belief system to the thing as I see analogous in mine.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Yes, many fine lines here that, perhaps, are of our own making.

I define Metta, for myself, as adding a few drops of kindness and good hopes into the world. Positive thoughts, words and actions can have real effect on those around us and, in this modern age, even people we communicate with on the other side of the world (just as hateful thoughts, words and acts can have real effects near and far ... as we see in the news each day).

It need not be considered a "prayer" to some force outside us (we will leave that to silence), and can be thought of as simply our aspiration for a better world for all living beings. Truly, 'inside' and 'outside' are not two, and one can effect and greatly change the other.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...Metta-PRACTICE

One need not believe in some mysterious force to it otherwise. I stand agnostic and rather skeptical about whether there is more to it than that. I leave it to others, in their hearts, as to how they wish to interpret this. Same with Tonglen ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?123-Tonglen-Practice-Circle

However, "mysterious force" or not, the fine line between "Metta" and a prayer is perhaps 6 of one, half a dozen of another.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Eishuu]

I read the initial question as someone telling someone to pray more rather than asking for prayers for themselves or others. If someone actually asks me for prayers then I'll do some prayers for them in my own way or I'll dedicate my sitting to them or send metta. If someone tells me to 'pray more' in general then I'll probably just see that as their way to cope with my situation and sit Zazen.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[SNPII]

I read the initial question as someone telling someone to pray more rather than asking for prayers for themselves or others. If someone actually asks me for prayers then I'll do some prayers for them in my own way or I'll dedicate my sitting to them or send metta. If someone tells me to 'pray more' in general then I'll probably just see that as their way to cope with my situation and sit Zazen.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

Yes! I'm relating to this one very Well! Thanks Eishuu!

Sat

In Sincerity
Shane

[Jundo]

My wife and I were volunteers at Hospice for several years. Once in awhile, one of the patients near death would ask me to pray to Jesus with them. I would, with all my heart. One time a Chinese Buddhist grandmother asked me to pray to Amida with her, and to Chant "NAMO AMITUOFO" with her. I did with all my heart.

I just remembered that.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

My wife and I were volunteers at Hospice for several years. Once in awhile, one of the patients near death would ask me to pray to Jesus with them. I would, with all my heart. One time a Chinese Buddhist grandmother asked me to pray to Amida with her, and to Chant "NAMO AMITUOFO" with her. I did with all my heart.

I just remembered that.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[sjlabat]

Shinshi, liked your comment on having to ‘translate’ the word prayer when asked or implored to pray, or pray more. Many different people may use this word - but without much clarity regarding what they mean by it. Sometimes I use the direct approach and ask ‘how do you pray?’ ‘what is prayer to you?’ Frankly, zazen is (in my view, and there are many in monotheistic traditions who would agree – some not, but that’s their right) a perfectly fine form of prayer in itself. Words like “prayer,” and “god” carry all sorts of cultural, experiential baggage – and tend to confuse as much as they clarify, at least when simply said without a deeper dialogue. Those dialogues can be hard to have considering that a lot of emotion tends to be tied up in these words as well.
Also, with ‘prayer,’ different people have different personalities, needs, points of development in life. Some very much identify with the sort of ‘self-power’ D.I.Y. ‘feel’ zazen may have, some may identify with interaction with a god or force that is beyond, outside of you and can help you. But, I don’t think either broad path – if followed with regular practice – is as simply dualistic as that. I think James L. Ford (a prof at Wake Forest, not to be confused with James Ishmael Myoun Ford) is making a like point in an article he wrote on self-power vs. other-power in Pure Land Buddhism in an article he wrote in the Japanese Journal of Religious Studies in 2002 (Jundo, if you are familiar with this article – let me know if you concur with my interpretation, I’ve only skimmed it…)
gassho,
sjl
sat,lah

[Jundo]

Frankly, zazen is (in my view, and there are many in monotheistic traditions who would agree – some not, but that’s their right) a perfectly fine form of prayer in itself.

Yes, lovely. Zazen is "prayer" too, all questions asked and answered, all thanks given. Self flows into other, other is just self. The whole world supporting the whole world.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - I don't recall the article, but I will look for it. As you probably know, in China and Vietnam (unlike Japan) Pure Land and Zen became all blended together over the centuries.

There is a wonderful essay on the "doctrinal" ways this was done centuries ago. If you are interest (it is a little Buddhist history wonky; Chappell, Pure Land Responses to Chan Critics), here are most of the pages (WARNING: FOR REAL ZEN/PURE LAND HISTORY & DOCTRINE WONKS ONLY ):

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=GwPy3fMhuF4C&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=chappell+pure+land+responses+critics&source=bl&ots=JK8tkLaaqV&sig=gvl3iVnMWTfZijwfOIMvofkxMxo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8OBaVJDWDcLzoATT44HwAQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=chappell%20pure%20land%20responses%20critics&f=false

[Meishin]

Hello,

The wife of a friend is having surgery this morning. He asked that I pray for them. I said "of course." We did not discuss the nuances of our differing beliefs.

Gassho
Meishin
Sat Today LAH

[Shokai]

[Shinshou]

Wasn't it in the Okumura book "Living by Vow" where he described zazen as being a combination of vow and repentance? What else could sincere prayer be?

Shinshou
Sat today

[Mr_Kha]

I have a quite similar problem.
First, this is my first post/reply on this forum, so apologize if I repeat some things. I just have started.

I live in Vietnam and I visit pagodas in the city where I live. Some time ago, I went with a Vietnamese friend at an Uposatha day to a Mahayana pagoda. There I bowed to a statue of Buddha, whereas my friend started "heavily" praying. He then asked me to do the same, which I reclined. He prayed for quite "secular" things like health, more money, a payrise etc. In the pagoda are, furthermore, statues of non-Buddhist statues,mostly from Chinese Daoism.

In fact, I do not have any problem to bow or even do a prostration to Buddha. But it is not because he is my "god". I respect the historical Buddha as a human who has achieved the enlightenment, spread the dharma and founded the sangha. I reverence that. I fully understand, that Buddha might have for Vietnamese people a different appearance as for me, someone from the West. I studied Theravada Buddhism before, that might contribute to my "aversion" of Mahayana. I must confess, I still have problems with this "divine" Buddha image and this affects even my Zen studies. How should I approach this?

Thank you for reading.

Gassho,

Karsten
Sat today

[Jundo]

I have a quite similar problem.
First, this is my first post/reply on this forum, so apologize if I repeat some things. I just have started.

I live in Vietnam and I visit pagodas in the city where I live. Some time ago, I went with a Vietnamese friend at an Uposatha day to a Mahayana pagoda. There I bowed to a statue of Buddha, whereas my friend started "heavily" praying. He then asked me to do the same, which I reclined. He prayed for quite "secular" things like health, more money, a payrise etc. In the pagoda are, furthermore, statues of non-Buddhist statues,mostly from Chinese Daoism.

In fact, I do not have any problem to bow or even do a prostration to Buddha. But it is not because he is my "god". I respect the historical Buddha as a human who has achieved the enlightenment, spread the dharma and founded the sangha. I reverence that. I fully understand, that Buddha might have for Vietnamese people a different appearance as for me, someone from the West. I studied Theravada Buddhism before, that might contribute to my "aversion" of Mahayana. I must confess, I still have problems with this "divine" Buddha image and this affects even my Zen studies. How should I approach this?

Thank you for reading.

Gassho,

Karsten
Sat today

Hi Karsten,

I respect and bow in honor and humility to "buddha the man" who started the ball rolling, and "Buddha," the symbol in Mahayana for "All Reality." When folks come to our Zendo (including some Islam folks for whom I have sometimes offered to remove all the statues), I just say that they should bow "feeling gratitude for being here, alive, to whomever or whatever."

In most places in Asia, from Thailand to Tibet, Buddhism is the religion of ordinary people and Buddha (and the other figures in a temple) are their gods and saints. People pray for worldly (health, wealth and well being) and next worldly things. It is so in Theravadan countries too.

http://www.thaiworldview.com/bouddha/ceremo15.htm

It is found in Soto Zen too. As well, as Buddhism moved from culture to culture, it picked up a whole army of Indian, Tibetan, Chinese and Japanese gods and other entities to add to the pantheon. People worship them in all variety of ways. For example, someone like "Amida Buddha" in his "Pure Land" can be take as merely a symbol for Enlightenment and the "pure land" not a place, or he can be taken as a savior not too far from Jesus who will take the faithful to heaven.

That said, everything starts from Zazen. Other practices and ceremonies, take them or leave them depending on how they resonate with your heart and life. Some folks get much out of chanting ceremonies and the intricate dance, and some do not. Same with the figures: If Kannon Bodhisattva resonates as a symbol of mercy and compassion, then you will find value there. If another figure, such as the Yellow Emperor seen in many Chinese and Vietnamese temples, does not ... skip that.

(It is true, however, that sometimes we undertake certain practices BECAUSE we find them uncomfortable. This helps us overcome our human tendency to divide the world into what we like and dislike. Sometimes, in visiting a monastery, I will engage in ceremonies I really don't usually believe in for this reason).

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Anka]

Gassho Jundo

James F
Sat

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