Prayer?

[SNPII]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic? I don't feel I need to pray to anything and in Buddhism I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

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[Jishin]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic? I don't feel I need to pray to anything and in Buddhism I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

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When I attach to form I cause pain. To pray or not to pray is attachment to the form of praying. Just go with it. Don’t swim upstream. Do what feels right.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[SNPII]

Very well said! I see it much clearer now! Thanks!

Sat2daymaysitmore

Shane

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[Jishin]

[emoji1317][emoji4]

[Jundo]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic? I don't feel I need to pray to anything and in Buddhism I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

When folks come to our Zazenkai, I tell them to simply feel "Gratitude" in their hearts during our Ceremony. It is not about some wooden statue that is a work of art, or some person or spirit in the sky (unless they happen to believe in that, which is fine too), but Gratitude for everything.

However, the Buddhist meaning of "Gratitude" is a bit special ...

... Ordinary human gratitude is what we are encouraged to feel in the above exercise, and it is fine. In fact, it is wise, healthy and important. Yet there is a "Buddha's Gratitude" which is not dependent on what we "like" that momentarily pleases the selfish-self, that is not based simply on "looking out for the good side" or experiencing the "gorgeous" day. This Emptiness that is all Fullness -is- both the glass "half full" and "half empty!"

A Buddha's Gratitude is Vast and Unlimited ... a Gratitude both for that which we love and that which we may not, a Treasure beyond yet holding mere "silver linings" "brass rings" and "lumps of coal". It is a Peace and Wholeness which transcends "pro vs. con", a Beauty which sees even the ugly times as "gorgeous day". We are grateful for life, for death, for health, for sickness .. each and all as Sacred. It is a Gratitude in the face of a cancer diagnosis, Gratitude that dances all disappointments ..

SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: gratitude & Great Gratitude
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...reat-Gratitude

This is also how I "prayed" when in hospital for my cancer operation last December ... a Gratitude directed at the whole universe, to anyone or anything that may be listening, to whatever may have caused us to have the experience of being born into this strange life, a Gratitude for all of it beyond anyone or anything needing to listen or not listen too. More a big "Thank You," and a willingness to flow with events, than a prayer asking for any favors as such.

That is what I suggest.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Ryushi]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic?

I (try to) feel the way I feel when anyone gives me unsolicited self-improvement advice, or recommends something that they feel has helped themselves in life. Say "thank you" and keep my own counsel on what to do. There's no obligation to do what they say, but generally its offered with the best of intentions.

[SNPII]

Ahhhmazing Jundo!

Gassho!!

In Sincerity
Shane

[Jundo]

I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

One thing is that Buddhist and traditional Zen Teachings have much "praying to" as well, for perhaps the vast majority of Buddhist and Zen Buddhist folks. Praying to Amida Buddha, Kannon, Shakyamuni, Taira, you name it. It must be hard wired into us, and is not different in any substantial way from praying to Jesus or Mary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqSjJO4qEqQ

Even the statues are said to be "brought to life" in Zen temples in Japan in a special ceremony turning them into, if you will, "telephones" to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. That is not my interpretation, by the way (I am more a "everything, every leaf and stone, is a telephone to Buddha, and Buddha is the phone too" kind of fellow). (This is a Korean temple, but they do a similar ceremony at Zen temples in Japan. Yes, the rope represents being connected by the "telephone line." )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCycUnBS_c8

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Eye-opening_ceremony

I have not done such a Ceremony at Treeleaf. The leaves and stones and wooden statues and you and me are already as live as they could ever be.

Now, if you really get into the higher "theology" of all this, "outside power" is inside, "inside power" is outside, and Amida and company are just "symbols" and embodiments of something. What that "symbol" represents and embodiment encompasses, well, I leave that for you to taste on your Zafu sitting cushion.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[SNPII]

One thing is that Buddhist and traditional Zen Teachings have much "praying to" as well, for perhaps the vast majority of Buddhist and Zen Buddhist folks. Praying to Amida Buddha, Kannon, Shakyamuni, Taira, you name it. It must be hard wired into us, and is not different in any substantial way from praying to Jesus or Mary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqSjJO4qEqQ

Even the statues are said to be "brought to life" in Zen temples in Japan in a special ceremony turning them into, if you will, "telephones" to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. That is not my interpretation, by the way (I am more a "everything, every leaf and stone, is a telephone to Buddha, and Buddha is the phone too" kind of fellow). (This is a Korean temple, but they do a similar ceremony at Zen temples in Japan. Yes, the rope represents being connected by the "telephone line." )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCycUnBS_c8

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Eye-opening_ceremony

I have not done such a Ceremony at Treeleaf. The leaves and stones and wooden statues and you and me are already as live as they could ever be.

Now, if you really get into the higher "theology" of all this, "outside power" is inside, "inside power" is outside, and Amida and company are just "symbols" and embodiments of something. What that "symbol" represents and embodiment encompasses, well, I leave that for you to taste on your Zafu sitting cushion.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

I still feel the original teachings do not push forth the “requirement” to worship anything, but can appreciate the sentiment of respect in these so called rituals. I’ll keep on those intro videos for sure though! I just love this journey!

Sat2daygettingresdy2sitagain


[emoji1374]In Sincerity🧘🏼*♂️
Shane

[Frank Murray]

Prayer?

Hello everyone,

This is an interesting topic, I was discussing this with my wife the other day when we visited a local Vietnamese temple. We were discussing if we ask something of the Buddha or are we expressing gratitude for the good things which have recently happened.

I feel that prayer may be more common in certain cultures maybe. In Vietnamese Buddhist cultures I have encountered, there appears to be a tradition of praying for what you need or would like, perhaps in line with type of prayer we may encounter in some Christian traditions?

In Japan, I found Monks of various Buddhist schools were more inclined to acknowledge gratitude (as Jundo mentioned) and hope/attract more positives into life.

Pardon my ignorance on this topic if it’s at odds to anyone else’s experiences, as I’m sure there are many possible views on this. I sense there are cultural variables at play as well potentially.

Gassho,

Frank

[Eishuu]

I also think if someone tells you to pray more then it might be their way of coping with feeling powerless, and it makes them feel better to think you are calling on the divine for help. If that's the case then I'd let them advise me and feel better. I do sometimes feel very devotional, and direct it at the universe or at Jizo or Kannon.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Daitetsu]

Hi Shane,

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic?

For me Zazen is about sitting with things as they are. It is about acceptance and letting go.
However, when people pray they often do so, because they wish things to be different.

Of course there is the kind of prayer where you show your gratitude or devotion.
Here the question arises, whom do you pray to?
I find the practice of writing a gratitude journal very humbling and fulfilling. It gets you down to earth, and you don't have to ask yourself the question whether there is a "recipient" for your prayer (if you are an Agnostic; when you are a theist, you assume there is one, of course).

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[SNPII]

I have done a lot of gratitude work and am actually currently working through the wholesome acts in personal meditation.

I meditate daily on say "desire and greed" with counter parts being "contentment and generosity". I let that marinate and then release.

I find that it begins to reframe my mind outside of the sitting. Which is the ultimate point I feel.

Thanks for all your comments!

Sat9hrsagowillsitagain

In Sincerity
Shane

[Kyonin]

Hi Shane,

When people tell me to pray more, I just smile. If I'm asked to join and pray (like in a funeral), I smile and do it. When they give me a blessing, I thank and smile.

Religion comes from Latin religare: to unite.

That's all

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Getchi]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic? I don't feel I need to pray to anything and in Buddhism I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

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I'm from Australia, no one gives a sh@t.





SatToday
LaH


Geoff.