Split Thread: kenosis, ataraxia, and apatheia

[Rendulic]

I think all cultures have a similar parable to that of the Mani Man: An old, wise man (culturally "old, wise men" were used a lot, though it should also read "woman" or "person"), saying prayers to himself and spinning the mani wheel. In these stories good things happen and bad things happen and the wise person retains equanimity. https://www.kindspring.org/story/view.php?sid=8004

In short, the man lives with his son in joyous simplicity. One day their prize horse runs off -- but the man is not perturbed, saying "good or bad, how are we to know with our limited understanding?" The horse returns, with two wild mustangs that follow it -- but the man says "good or bad, how are we to know with our limited understanding?" The son then breaks his leg trying to race the two new horses -- but the man says "good or bad, how are we to know with our limited understanding?" Then, and army conscription officer comes to take all of the village's young men to fight in a war and the son gets to stay behind -- the man says "good or bad, how are we to know with our limited understanding?"

This is Tibetan traditional tale, and I've always interpreted the wise person as being active and working towards doing the right thing in the moment, just not getting overly attached to the results. I think "stoicism" has been misused in the West as an uncaring philosophy, which is far from Marcus Aurelius' and Zeno's actual writings. But this equanimity/stoicism/centeredness is one of those elusive and sought after qualities in all religious practices.

Gassho, Michael
Sat Today LAH

[Tom]

Hi Jundo,

"I cried many times. I don’t want you to think that what I am talking about is a practice of stoicism, something so numbing that it removes us from all ordinary human emotions and caring. In fact, I would not want any practice that turned me into some machine without feelings, leaving me unable to know ordinary sadness, grief and loss in the face of a mother’s death. I want to cry, because to cry is to be human."

I think the writer is talking about a common understanding of Stoicism as 'a stiff upper lip' and the numbing of emotions. The word Stoicism has come to have such meanings, specially in the UK, I think.

But that's not really, or even at all, what Seneca, Epictetus and the others Stoics were on about. Epictetus used to say when you kiss your child at night, imagine them gone in the morning, not out of callousness, but because it could happen.

They didn't say have no feelings. They said they are just feelings, sense impressions, transient fleeting sensory visitors, as are we on this earth. They said our suffering comes from trying to hold onto them and believing they are real.

Sounds a bit familiar to me.

But we're non-Zenning-Zen over here. Just a passing observation. Personally I've found the paralells stunning.

I think Seneca would love Treeleaf.

Gassho,
Tom
SAT, LAH

[Tom]

Michael,

To me the paralells are too many to be a coincidence. Humans did, of course, invent the same thing in different places at different times in history.

Tom

SAT LAH

[Jundo]

I think Seneca would love Treeleaf.

Invite him over!

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[RichardH]

Reading over this thread, the word “convert” stands out for me. To be converted to Buddhism sounds like exchanging one set of doctrines, or truth claim, for another. Where as before I held that one way was the truth, now I hold that another way is the truth. Now this is my truth, my congregation.

...at least that is how the word “convert” reads to this mind. By this definition I can’t relate to being a convert. This long road has had plenty of twists and turns, ideas coming and going, but the underlying process has been to let go and let go, and realize more and more in the bones, that there is nowhere to fall from, or to.

It’s interesting how a word can trigger reflection.

Gassho
RichardH

sat today/LAH

[Doshin]

Reading over this thread, the word “convert” stands out for me. To be converted to Buddhism sounds like exchanging one set of doctrines, or truth claim, for another. Where as before I held that one way was the truth, now I hold that another way is the truth. Now this is my truth, my congregation.

...at least that is how the word “convert” reads to this mind. By this definition I can’t relate to being a convert. This long road has had plenty of twists and turns, ideas coming and going, but the underlying process has been to let go and let go, and realize more and more in the bones, that there is nowhere to fall from, or to.

It’s interesting how a word can trigger reflection.

Gassho
RichardH

sat today/LAH

Thank you for that Richard. It resonates.

I have never been able to figure out what I am (not that it matters, nor until recently have I dwelled on it). My wife is considered a cradle to grave Christian Orthodox and lovingly talks about converts and their thirst. I started with Transcedental Mediation when it was such the rave in the late 1960s and have taken vows with various zen groups (Mindfulness Training with Thich Nhat Hanh, San Bo Tokudo with the Order of Clear Mind Zen..where I sewed the Wagessa mentioned elsewhere... and Jukai with Treeleaf). When people ask me if I am a Buddhist I hesitate and answer "Kinda of." I elaborate and say I try to follow the precepts (but then the Christian teachings of my very young youth are similar and intertwined with the behavior I strive for, but I do not identify as Christian). My main practice is sitting. Sometimes I think I should be reading and studying more to get at the essense but then that passes. I spend most of my time thinking of our ecological role in the universe (particularly Earth). For me, that actually is a great teacher to who/what we are/are not.

Jundo, I seldom have asked questions so here is your chance. How does that resonate with the world of zen. Am I just confused?

Gassho
Doshin
st

[Rendulic]

I think we are all in a continuous process of conversion. To be a convert is to have grown. This is a generous use of the word, and allows for someone who's grown up in, say, Jodo Shinshu, to be a convert to a deeper understanding on Shinran's path; or to be a lifelong Methodist and convert into a deeper understanding. Not undergoing some transformations would lead to stagnation.

Gassho, Rendulic
Sat Today

[WokiTheCat]

Hi Matthew,

It depends on the person, but I would say Zazen is all one needs.

If one finds beauty and power in ritual, then that is fine too. Taigu likes ritual, but I can take it or leave it. Zazen is all one needs, and all else is good too. Whatever rings one's bell and resonates. I'm not much for ceremony, but I do ceremony with all my heart when we do.

At heart, Zazen is all one needs. Zazen is the only ceremony in the whole world.

(A little study is necessary too, for it helps one understand the meaning of all of the above).

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

39 PM

I don't do rituals etc. But i get it. For sure. When you sit zazen, once in a while it's like you are a mortal on a leisurely stroll and suddenly tripping into the territory of the Gods. Sometimes you feel you were invited with open arms, and what could you have possibly done as mortal to be blessed with such an invitation? Especially when there is so much suffering in the world. Why you?

Jundo you once said but dont quote me, that in fear of a potential life threatening diagnosis that you might face the next day, you sat zazen and transcended death. Sure zen is boring and mundane but there is also something incredibly special about that. And that i can see the rituals and symbolism and bowing etc as an expression of that in complete utter gratitude. Or perhaps sitting and getting groceries in zazen is enough gratitude?

Its funny. If i skip a bunch of zazen, and than sit and even if i get just a hint of something greater than "small me", a couple times i've apologized out loud, to who? i don't know....But i apologized for taking it for granted, almost wayne and garth like "We're not worthy!!"

As my zazen matures and i mature and im more discliplined i can see myself doing more of the rituals whether its in the Soto tradition or in my own expressive way. Either way i believe it is all just expression.

Gassho,
Misha

[Doshin]

Jundo,

I was hoping you could share your perspective on my question above. This thread stimulated some brain cells to ponder the question I shared. Your wisdom to shed light would be helpful.

Gassho
Doshin
St

[Jundo]

Thank you for that Richard. It resonates.

I have never been able to figure out what I am (not that it matters, nor until recently have I dwelled on it). My wife is considered a cradle to grave Christian Orthodox and lovingly talks about converts and their thirst. I started with Transcedental Mediation when it was such the rave in the late 1960s and have taken vows with various zen groups (Mindfulness Training with Thich Nhat Hanh, San Bo Tokudo with the Order of Clear Mind Zen..where I sewed the Wagessa mentioned elsewhere... and Jukai with Treeleaf). When people ask me if I am a Buddhist I hesitate and answer "Kinda of." I elaborate and say I try to follow the precepts (but then the Christian teachings of my very young youth are similar and intertwined with the behavior I strive for, but I do not identify as Christian). My main practice is sitting. Sometimes I think I should be reading and studying more to get at the essense but then that passes. I spend most of my time thinking of our ecological role in the universe (particularly Earth). For me, that actually is a great teacher to who/what we are/are not.

Jundo, I seldom have asked questions so here is your chance. How does that resonate with the world of zen. Am I just confused?

Gassho
Doshin
st

Hi Doshin,

Not sure of the question (or if you are sure of your own question). I guess that it doesn't matter what ya call it, but how one lives it. If it quacks like a duck. What you wrote sounds all Kosher to me.

Just be Doshin. Just be a good person. (By the way, Doshin is a good person).

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

PS - I always like when I get to post this ... yes, we accept paypal ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVGDzne7cRQ&t=69s

Not sure if your are a "Buddhist," but you certainly are a "Boodhist."

[Troy]

Split Thread: kenosis, ataraxia, and apatheia

I think it is important to study the sutras and precepts, but too much studying can become a stumbling block. It can easily be turned into a form of clinging and a source of suffering. Our heads can become weary with knowledge or worse we could get swept up into dogmatic attitudes of rightness and wrongness.

I am not saying that the sutras are not important because they are. At least for me. Life has a way of making us humble. We often make mistakes and get in our own way. The sutras are there to help point us in the right direction when we get lost.

Sitting helps us see that life is right in front of us at this very moment and that we are part of a great wholeness that is bigger than ourselves. Sitting helps us find a peace with all of life, both the good and the bad. We learn to be more compassionate with ourselves and others. Not that we seek while sitting, but its the non-seeking of nothing to be found or lost that helps us find it.

Thich Nhat Hanh once said that all of the Buddhist teachings could be boiled down into two lessons. They are the lessons of impermanence and what he called inter-being or interconnectedness. He said if you understood those two teachings at a deep level you would understand all the wisdom teachings of Buddhism.

Just my thoughts. I could be completely wrong.

Edit: sorry for long ramble. What was going to be a short post, turned into a late night of me trying to organize my thoughts


Sat2day

[Doshin]

PS - I always like when I get to post this ... yes, we accept paypal ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVGDzne7cRQ&t=69s

Not sure if your are a "Buddhist," but you certainly are a "Boodhist."

Thank you Jundo. I was not sure of the question either which is why I asked. Just wanted to put it out there for examination.The video was a great summary of what I was thinking which helps me not worry abot the label again. It was all the taxonomy which I have had to deal with in my life as a biologist that came creeping out the past few weeks. It is expended now. I will continue to be. Chop wood, carry water, feed the dogs and lizards.

BTW I have gotten several certificates along the way. i am special or not.

Gassho
Doshin
Born again boodhist
St

[Jakuden]

Thich Nhat Hanh once said that all of the Buddhist teachings could be boiled down into two lessons. They are the lessons of impermanence and what he called inter-being or interconnectedness. He said if you understood those two teachings at a deep level you would understand all the wisdom teachings of Buddhism.

Hi Troy, I sometimes think about how to "boil it down" for people who ask about Buddhism but don't want a dissertation, LOL. I usually come back to the four noble truths, but this resonates too, thanks!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Troy]

[emoji1374][emoji18]


Sat2day