Split Thread: kenosis, ataraxia, and apatheia

[Rendulic]

I've developed a somewhat complicated routine, rather than liturgy, through the past two decades that incorporates a lot of elements from Shin, Zen and other traditions. As a convert, I find comfort in having something specific to do at 6, 9, 12, 3 and sunset, usually sitting in the morning and/or evening.

For Shikantaza to work for me, I've notice that I need to be able to dedicate at least 15 minutes to a sit, and I don't often have that throughout the day. Without at least 15 minutes, I don't notice the positive things associated with the practice, such as kenosis, ataraxia, and apatheia. Not that I'm "seeking," just that rushing through a practice seems counterproductive.

So, I've taken to using those time throughout the day to quickly run through the brahma viharas, or the 5 remembrances. I use it as a reminder, and as a focus for memorizing some of the sila-related lists (I love how ancient cultures validated the truthfulness of claims by making lists -- just like we do with out 12-step paths).

This has worked for me, to keep meditation focused on sitting, but to have small reminders as a mental exercise throughout the day. I also find that it adds rhythm to my life and requires discipline.

Gassho, Michael

Sat Today LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Michael,

Would you mind to post an Avatar photo so we can look you in the eye a bit? Thank you.

I had to look these up ...

kenosis, ataraxia, and apatheia

Kenosis, from the Greek word for emptiness κένωσις (kénōsis), is the "self-emptying" of one's personal will to become entirely receptive to divine will

Do you mean just yielding to conditions and letting things be?

Ataraxia (ἀταραξία, literally, "not perturbed", generally translated as "imperturbability", "equanimity", or "tranquillity"

We don't chase after, need or expect this. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not, which is the greatest Calm (Big C) that does not even need to feel calm all the time.

Apatheia (Greek: ἀπάθεια; from a- "without" and pathos "suffering" or "passion"), in Stoicism, refers to a state of mind in which one is not disturbed by the passions.

Just yield to conditions and let things be.

No fancy words or effort needed.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Rendulic]

I've finally posted an avatar -- thank you for pointing out that I hadn't yet done so. I had assumed that a photo on my page was the same as an avatar.

As a convert who attended a lot of classical Christian religious education as a young person, the word kenosis is easier to me than sunyata; just as ataraxia is easier than upekka. I am endlessly fascinated by interplay of concepts between mystical/religious/philosophical traditions. As mentioned in the 8-different-enlightment post, sometimes they mean the same thing and sometimes they don't. It seems to vary not just according to tradition, but also according to decade.

I was referencing Pyrrhonism, where kenosis (emptying, or recognition of emptiness) leads to ataraxia and apatheia (an Ancient Greek version of equanimity). Of course, there is a theory about Pyrrho having some potentially passing understanding of Buddhism due to trade. Then again, if something is true (practically and generally true, not just True with a big "T"), it's not surprising that multiple people would stumble upon it and introduce it to their culture.

Gassho, Michael

Sat Today LAH

[Rakurei]

I've developed a somewhat complicated routine, rather than liturgy, through the past two decades that incorporates a lot of elements from Shin, Zen and other traditions. As a convert, I find comfort in having something specific to do at 6, 9, 12, 3 and sunset, usually sitting in the morning and/or evening.

For Shikantaza to work for me, I've notice that I need to be able to dedicate at least 15 minutes to a sit, and I don't often have that throughout the day. Without at least 15 minutes, I don't notice the positive things associated with the practice, such as kenosis, ataraxia, and apatheia. Not that I'm "seeking," just that rushing through a practice seems counterproductive.

So, I've taken to using those time throughout the day to quickly run through the brahma viharas, or the 5 remembrances. I use it as a reminder, and as a focus for memorizing some of the sila-related lists (I love how ancient cultures validated the truthfulness of claims by making lists -- just like we do with out 12-step paths).

This has worked for me, to keep meditation focused on sitting, but to have small reminders as a mental exercise throughout the day. I also find that it adds rhythm to my life and requires discipline.

Gassho, Michael

Sat Today LAH

Reading this made me feel anxious and overwhelmed , but I suppose whatever helps one to sit fits.

ST,

Rakurei

[Mitka]

Michael,

I feel we may be coming from similar walks of life.

6,9,12,3 and sunset, is this schedule influenced by the Christian the canonical hours? I try to sit during these times for 15 minutes, a habit I picked up when I was interested in mystical Christianity.

I also got an extensive Christian education, but funny I never associated kenosis with emptiness before. I guess for me the term is too wrapped up in notions of Jesus' two natures (Jesus emptying himself of his divine nature), though even there I guess you could see some hints at nondualism in what was decided at Chalcedon.

Gassho,
Matthew
SATLAH

[Jundo]

Here is the bottom line for me:

Some folks flourish in ritual and routine, some are more free wheeling in their Zen Practice.

Rendulic's description of his daily schedule is actually very similar to a set monastic schedule, with various ceremonies and traditional acts, and some folks blossom in that setting. Rendulic, if you feel at home there, then do so.

However, I also challenge you to challenge yourself: For me, when I join a formal Sesshin in a Japanese monastery, the set routine and rigid restrictions are a challenge to my usual way of practicing and living each day. I resist the monastic schedule, but I learn to let that resistance go and to drop my personal preferences. There is a freedom to be found within despite the seeming restrictions without. There is a wisdom to the repeated routine whereby it becomes part of the body memory, one pours oneself into the repeated pattern, thereby to lose oneself and find oneself again ... like a dancer who loses himself in the dance.

So, Rendulic, I challenge you to go the other way, and intentionally break the routine every so often, and be free wheeling. Chant nothing. Light no incense. Just sit, wherever and whenever.

And you, Rakurei, get ye to a monastery and do some routine (if you can arrange it)! The most Japanese and formal place you can find. Throw yourself into every moment and stodgy tradition that you find an obstacle.

(Zen teachers like to tell students to do the opposite of their natural inclination sometimes)

I cannot relate to the Greek theological terms for Zazen for it is not my background, but they apparently mean something to you, Rendulic. That is fine then. (But it's all Greek to me ) Just drop all the terms ... Greek, Latin, Chinese or Swahili ... when sitting Zazen, and Just Sit.

I interpret all that fancy lingo as: Let things be, do not grab thoughts, have no expectations or demands (not even for calm, equanimity or tranquillity as one of the terms means), let all things be including the passions, but without wallowing or stirring up the passions ... do not judge ... and just sit in the faith that sitting itself is the one act to do, the one place to be, in the time in the whole universe.

If all those 50-cent words mean that, then count me in!

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mitka]

Taigu talks about this in one of his sit-alongs: https://www.treeleaf.org/fhttps://ww...-Fanning-Space

When we first come to Zen practice we learn about zazen and think that is all we need. But sitting zazen without also chanting and bowing and saying the robe verse, and all that stuff is a bit like learning to play the violin without learning music theory (or fanning yourself with your hand instead of a nice fan in Taigu's example). You may come to a certain level of proficiency by yourself, but not to the level of proficiency you could if you sat down and learned to read notes and distinguish between major and minor chords and all that jazz (and classical, and rock), letting yourself be nourished with the tradition of music theory. Zazen without the rituals feels a bit like this to me. Of course the bowing does make me feel silly at times (though coming from a culture which over-emphasizes individuality I think it is good medicine) and the chanting does embarrass me a bit, but I think I will become comfortable with it in time. After all I am completely comfortable taking communion and saying the Lord's Prayer in church, even though these rituals are just as strange from an outsiders perspective as the ones we do here. So I think comfort comes with use... and with use the rituals can become stale and lifeless, so yes it is important to break up the routine sometimes. Sometimes just sit, sometimes do full floor prostations.

Just my 50 cents however, I am fairly new at this... but this approach to the ritual aspects of Zen practice have helped me embrace them, so I thought I would share.

Rakurei, I appreciate that parable you shared. This is one thing that grated me the wrong way in Christianity, how divine Jesus was. I never felt like I could relate to him. So it was refreshing to learn about the Buddha, who was just a normal guy who found out something amazing about life and shared it with everyone. However now that I am getting more involve in Zen practice I am finding that even the Buddha succumbed to divinization and pedalizing. From being born talking and declaring that he alone in all the universe is the world-honoured one, to people calling him Lord, and to referring to himself in the third person as Tathagata, or Zen masters saying that the Buddha's practice was somehow special and something we could never imitate... these are things I thought I left behind. I suppose there is no escaping this sort of thing, it must meet a deep human need... but for me it is always important to remind myself how human these people were, and how normal we are too. These rituals are nothing magical, they don't confer any special status on us. They are down to earth and done just to express our gratitude.

Thank you all for the great discussion.

Gassho,
Matthew
SATLAH

[Jundo]

Hi Matthew,

It depends on the person, but I would say Zazen is all one needs.

If one finds beauty and power in ritual, then that is fine too. Taigu likes ritual, but I can take it or leave it. Zazen is all one needs, and all else is good too. Whatever rings one's bell and resonates. I'm not much for ceremony, but I do ceremony with all my heart when we do.

At heart, Zazen is all one needs. Zazen is the only ceremony in the whole world.

(A little study is necessary too, for it helps one understand the meaning of all of the above).

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Doshin]

Interesting discussion. I have been around Christian and other spiritiaul rituals but never really participated (except as noted below). My wife is Orthodox Christian and goes through some rituals particularly around Easter. They work for her and there is some beauty associated with them.

However, I am a simple man. My ritual is to look at the sunset and marvel at the sunrise and everything inbetween is Holy. I like my Zen just sitting. But when in the Zendo I do what they all do out of respect.

From my personal perspective and understanding (flawed as I am) it seems humans have a tendency to make dieties out of some men/women and encompass them with powers and acts that those good teachers (if their stardust could speak) would say "what????" So I do not hold Jesus or Buddha responsible for their now associated rituals or storied histories written by those who came long after and added thier own flavor/interpretation. Followers construct the worlds they want to live in.

Gassho
Doshin
st

[Kyonin]

Hi everyone.

Thank you for this topic.

I have found that to me, life with no ceremony or ritual is kind of strange. It's not that I spend a lot of time doing formalities or ceremonies, of course. As a matter of fact my life is pretty simple in that sense, but I begin my days with a little structure I designed for my practice and for what I have learned in sesshin. In all it takes about 1.5 hours and zazen is the main part of it all.

I guess one can benefit from ritual and ceremony as long as it's not overdone, because that's how we can start losing interest in things.

Saying all that... zazen is zazen and we don't look to get anything out of just sitting.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Rendulic]

Yes, I did base the times on a Christian monastic schedule, and also because they are easy for me to work into my day at the office and they home.

I’m off the spend the weekend camping and I have that opportunity once a month (even in the New England winters) to break all of my routines.

As a guitarist, or any musician or artist, I liken it learning scales, modes, relative minors, stylistic quirks and everything before one can improvise amazingly. Even after playing for 26 years, I go back to scales and shapes to refresh the fundamentals. Zazen is improvisation and ritual is scales. Both are meaningless without the other.

Gassho, Michael
Sat Today LAH

[Jippou]

Yes, I did base the times on a Christian monastic schedule, and also because they are easy for me to work into my day at the office and they home.

I’m off the spend the weekend camping and I have that opportunity once a month (even in the New England winters) to break all of my routines.

As a guitarist, or any musician or artist, I liken it learning scales, modes, relative minors, stylistic quirks and everything before one can improvise amazingly. Even after playing for 26 years, I go back to scales and shapes to refresh the fundamentals. Zazen is improvisation and ritual is scales. Both are meaningless without the other.

Gassho, Michael
Sat Today LAH

Hi Michael. I enjoyed your post. I came into Zen and Zazen/Shikantaza through Thomas Merton and Centering Prayer, but I’m a professed lay monastic who incorporates sitting with lauds and vespers etc. so I totally get the times based on the office. Ive spent a lot of time in the past decade studying the Orthodox Philokalia, so it warmed my heart to seek the Greek. Merton’s exploration of Zen came from a thorough study of the Desert Fathers and Mother’s and seeing many similarities of practice. I’ve always wondered about the links between Hesychia (inner stillness), theoria (contemplation) and Theosis with the Buddhist experience of nirvana. Ultimately it’s all just words of course, and not the experience itself, but I’ve always found the fun in speculation. It’s one of the things that helps me to see utter futility of discursive reasoning. Musical scales are an interesting thought. How familiar are you with Pathagorian philosophy and cosmology?

Gassho,
Jason
sat today


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[sjlabat]

There are, in my experience, lots of commonalities between Zen and Eastern Christianity. The discussion previous, yes, kenosis, I think could be experienced as 'emptiness' in the way many Zen folk experience it and 'apathea' (I'm thinking off the top of my head here) seems similar to Nishijima's 'balanced state' - if I 'get' what he's trying to get at. The English word 'apathy' of course comes from 'apathea' but does not mean the same thing. ...there is a Christian, I think western tradition, monastic story of a dead monk in a grave - one monk says to the other 'complement him' the monk does and the dead guy is unmoved, the one of the two (living) monks says, now curse him out - the monk does that and the dead monk remains the same. The point of the story being to emulate that balanced state of not being bandied about by 'this and that,' 'good and bad' (I don't think it means 'act like a zombie,' or a dead guy - but I could be wrong!)
gassho
sean
sat, lah

[Joyo]

However, I am a simple man. My ritual is to look at the sunset and marvel at the sunrise and everything inbetween is Holy. I like my Zen just sitting. But when in the Zendo I do what they all do out of respect.


Gassho
Doshin
st

I am the same way, Doshin.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Rendulic]

I've not spent much time with the neo-Platonists or Pythagoreans -- my excursions into Greek philosophy came courtesy of Aurelius and Pyrrho. The Platonic ideals of root/ideal forms and the separate existence of a perfected reality didn't accord with the world I experienced.

The speculation is fun, in the way that koans lead the mind through recursive reasoning to get past it. Because the human mind shares such similarity in it's basic wiring, there's bound to be similarities to systems designed to overcome the bugs present in the system. Some of those systems had a culturally-defined end place in mind and some of them just posited a way past the programming with little to no discussion of the end point -- zen seems to fall into the latter category. But, so does a lot of mystical Christian writing and folks with realized eschatology of the non-dualist sort. I've always been attracted to these strains, Eastern and Western, because they assert that maybe there isn't some better far-off place; maybe we are best off by being the best we can in the present.

Some folks don't have a brain that has to bust through concepts to get to the non-conceptual, but for those like me who do, these have been interesting inquiries...

Gassho, Michael
Sat Today