Bliss vs ?

[WokiTheCat]

Hey guys, if anyone can chime in here that would help a bunch!

I watched a video of brad warner talking about how bliss is often encountered in zazen practice and one shouldn't get attached to such states, or states of feeling "high" and that rather our everyday normal boring life has a deep beauty to it. I than watched another video of brad talking about how doing the dishes is " excitement might not be the right word but doing the dishes was very interesting like the universe was doing the dishes". I've also read nishijima say that doing zazen takes us back to the state of mind we had as a child, don't quote me on that (he might've not have used the word 'state'). Brad also said as a child we had a more correct view of reality. When you think of a child, they find subtle things like picking up rocks etc very interesting and exciting. One more thing lol, Jundo along the lines once said doing zazen sometimes is like taking a blind off and seeing the world like a van gogh painting.

So my question is, initially brad said that we should not attach to bliss, that our boring life has beauty in it, so what is bliss than? How is bliss described vs seeing the world through the eyes of a child?

And is seeing the world through the eyes of a child the same as seeing the world like a "beautiful van gogh painting" or the same as "bliss" ?

Gassho
misha

[Mp]

Hello Misha,

The state or mind of a child is where one is free from conditions, categorizations, and judgements or more open and accepting of the world as it is in that moment. When we grow up we seem to think that life is made up of such (categories, conditions, labels) and thus causing seperation, which then causes suffering.

If we see a beautiful painting as being something more, something better, or something more beautiful then the dog poop on the bottom of our shoe, then we are still stuck in delusion.

Each thing maybe be different in it's uniqueness, as a painting is different then the poop on your shoe in that way. But I feel when we accept them as they are, both beautiful and ugly and yet beyond beautiful and ugly ... We then return to the state or the mind of a child. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Hey guys, if anyone can chime in here that would help a bunch!

I watched a video of brad warner talking about how bliss is often encountered in zazen practice and one shouldn't get attached to such states, or states of feeling "high" and that rather our everyday normal boring life has a deep beauty to it. I than watched another video of brad talking about how doing the dishes is " excitement might not be the right word but doing the dishes was very interesting like the universe was doing the dishes". I've also read nishijima say that doing zazen takes us back to the state of mind we had as a child, don't quote me on that (he might've not have used the word 'state'). Brad also said as a child we had a more correct view of reality. When you think of a child, they find subtle things like picking up rocks etc very interesting and exciting. One more thing lol, Jundo along the lines once said doing zazen sometimes is like taking a blind off and seeing the world like a van gogh painting.

So my question is, initially brad said that we should not attach to bliss, that our boring life has beauty in it, so what is bliss than? How is bliss described vs seeing the world through the eyes of a child?

And is seeing the world through the eyes of a child the same as seeing the world like a "beautiful van gogh painting" or the same as "bliss" ?

Gassho
misha

Hi Misha,

I think the words you quoted pretty much say it all, and little to add.

"Bliss" is that feeling that one might get shooting up heroine (I have no experience, but had some pain killers in the hospital and such that must be pretty close!) Sometimes, in Zazen, we can get that, really WOW. Some forms of meditation (not Zen) seek that and really try to hold on to that. We don't. One might say that ours is a way of a Bliss so Big B Blissful that it does not even need to feel so "blissful" much of the time.

Sometimes washing the dishes is really WONDROUS, A MIRACLE, the whole Universe washing the Whole Universe. Most days, it is just washing the dishes. All good. There is a Wonder that is sometimes wondrous, and sometimes just washing the dishes in tedium. All Wondrous.

We should bring a child's curiosity and wonder back to life. However, sometimes kids are complaining, selfish, crying and easily bored too. I think that Buddhism is also a way to grow up and be better than our "Inner Child" too.

I think that I once said that this Practice is like painting a picture in which we are the painter and in the picture too. We can paint a beautiful picture (not for all the world, because everyone is painting the picture too, but for our corner of it) or an ugly picture, up to us.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

Thanks Shinjen, So what would the difference be between bliss thats experienced because of zazen vs blissfully enjoying washing the dishes as much as you enjoyed seeing the grand canyon (because of zazen). Brad mentioned the former bliss was a state not to get attached to, that his teacher shutdown.

I feel there is no difference if the experience is experienced completly and without expectation of something different/other.

Bliss is just a state of mind. Here is an example. I love the go into the back country for long periods. As you walk through the meadows and mountain tops there is beauty, there is bliss everywhere you look. But there too is bliss and beauty in each step, along the way ... even when you are carrying a 90lb pack and your body is sore and tired.

Again it all goes back to the state of mind. If you are at the Grand Canyon, be at the Grand Canyon with all your heart, not wishing to be anywhere else, or for things to be another other. The same can go with doing the dishes. When doing the dishes, just be there with all your heart, not wanting to change a single thing.

The great thing about this I feel is, the experiences you experience are organic and unfold naturally. Therefore there is no searching, no chasing after. Everything is right there, even bliss. =)

Make sense? Clear as mud as Jundo would say. =)

Just a side note ... when I was growing up I hated washed the dishes, it was like torture. But as I got older and the more I practice, the more I realized this torture that I felt did not come from the dishes, but rather my approach to the dishes. Now, I love doing the dishes. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[WokiTheCat]

Thanks Jundo and Shingen for your answers. So would you guys say that the best approach to zazen is to just trust zazen? Kinda like that trust game where you fall backwards into someones arms? Like nothing to hold onto (releasing your grip on a bar), releasing your grip on bliss (where some techniques hold onto bliss).?

Gassho,
Misha

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo and Shingen for your answers. So would you guys say that the best approach to zazen is to just trust zazen? Kinda like that trust game where you fall backwards into someones arms? Like nothing to hold onto (releasing your grip on a bar), releasing your grip on bliss (where some techniques hold onto bliss).?

Gassho,
Misha

Sounds good to me.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

Thanks Jundo and Shingen for your answers. So would you guys say that the best approach to zazen is to just trust zazen? Kinda like that trust game where you fall backwards into someones arms? Like nothing to hold onto (releasing your grip on a bar), releasing your grip on bliss (where some techniques hold onto bliss).?

Gassho,
Misha

Yes, that is a good analogy - trust can show us many things. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[WokiTheCat]

Sounds good to me.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Just a side question Jundo, not gonna bother making a thread, its not an important question, just wondering if you have or anyone ever goes through this in zazen or has gone through it as it seems to be a common theme in my practice. I'll try to articulate it but basically i get to this point where sitting with boredom just gets ridiculous and the fact that i can't do nothing about it makes me want to laugh out loud almost hysterically because its so absurd that i can't do nothing about it. That a wall just does not give a crap about what i want or what i prefer and theres just nowhere i can run to and it just creates this laughter that just wants to spill out at the absurdity of the situation. What seems to sometimes happen after that or a few times it goes through that cycle is a natural acceptance(exhaustion) and a quieting/emptying of the mind takes place filled with the present moment. Is this common or is it just unique to my experience of zazen, i feel like the madhatter when it happens though (besides the quieting of the mind part).

[Jundo]

Just a side question Jundo, not gonna bother making a thread, its not an important question, just wondering if you have or anyone ever goes through this in zazen or has gone through it as it seems to be a common theme in my practice. I'll try to articulate it but basically i get to this point where sitting with boredom just gets ridiculous and the fact that i can't do nothing about it makes me want to laugh out loud almost hysterically because its so absurd that i can't do nothing about it. That a wall just does not give a crap about what i want or what i prefer and theres just nowhere i can run to and it just creates this laughter that just wants to spill out at the absurdity of the situation. What seems to sometimes happen after that or a few times it goes through that cycle is a natural acceptance(exhaustion) and a quieting/emptying of the mind takes place filled with the present moment. Is this common or is it just unique to my experience of zazen, i feel like the madhatter when it happens though (besides the quieting of the mind part).

I think it is common. There is something so wisely-ridiculous in all this.

I don't get the giggles so often, and I try not to disturb others ... but it is funny, isn't it!

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[WokiTheCat]

I think it is common. There is something so wisely-ridiculous in all this.

I don't get the giggles so often, and I try not to disturb others ... but it is funny, isn't it!

Gassho, Jundo


SatTodayLAH

Thanks Jundo.

Gassho, Misha.