Problems with my shikantaza

[Zack]

Hello all, I have a few problems with the way I sit. For a while now I've been a "Bookshelf Buddhist" I would sit zazen but not that often.
I sat last night for a while, and I've run into a few problems with my posture and breathing and my thoughts.
First of all, when I sit I feel awkward and I have troubles with how stiff my shoulders are and my back and it affects my breathing.
Secondly, my breathing feels very unnatural and its very hard to ignore it and let it be natural.
Finally, I find myself running with my thoughts and I find my self-unable to just focus on my breath, and when sitting where do you place your awareness, and what do you do with the concious?
Thanks for the help!





Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Zack,

Zazen is very easy, like riding a bicycle. But, to someone who has never rode a bicycle, it seems impossible.

Just sit, without worrying about anything or judging right and wrong. Sitting itself is right. I know it is hard, because human beings are always judging ... but here, just sitting is automatically right. Just trust that the sitting is right.

Of course, try to find a comfortable balanced way to sit. Have you looked at our guide to various postures, and the rest of our Beginners Series?

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14896-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28INTRODUCTION%29-Begin-Here%21

Also, a book on posture we hightly recommend:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION

Let thoughts go without grabbing on. Let the breath take a natural rhythm. Look at the wall with eyes 1/3 open. If you need, just feel the breath enter and exit the nose. Just keep focusing on that, and dropping all thought of anything else to do, or anything lacking.

If you posture is bad, if your breath is rough, and if the roof falls on your head while a war rages outside ... none of it is any problem unless you make a problem by judging and feeling "something is wrong." Don't feel "something is wrong," and simply have trust that merely sitting is automatically right. Zazen is strange, because it is "right" when we stop thinking of it as being wrong. Read here:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7573-SPECIAL-REPOST-Right-Zazen-and-Wrong-Zazen

Have you watched all of the Beginner's Series of talks?

I am sure that other folks here will have more advice for you too.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Rakurei]

Hey Zack,

I still rewatch Jundo's beginner series every now and then. I highly recommend those. They answer a few of your questions - regarding awareness, posture and breath. For a deeper dive, Jundo wrote a really good post on Zazen and breathing. It's more of an interesting look at breath in zazen throughout the centuries - but if you want to check it out, I'm linking it below. There's some good discussion on breathing there.

I mainly wanted to say this - same, Zack! When I first started out, it's almost like I would unintentionally hold my breath, and then I'd be hyperaware of it. Or I'd suddenly become super focused on my neck or shoulders.

And the running of the thoughts, yep. Even long-time sitters still deal with the monkey mind and the rampant thoughts. You just become a bit more adept at not entertaining them and going back to focus.

My frustrating advice (other than watch the Beginner's Series) - is just keep sitting.

It's like an addict - when they don't get a drink or a drug, they shake and they have a physical reaction. Same in our situation. Our minds can become addicted to the daydreaming and the inner monologue. When we turn off that "drug of thought", there is a physical reaction. Our body wants to jump off the zafu, reach for our phone to check Twitter, change our breathing.

But this will be resolved by just sitting. Promise.

(Note: My point above is to illustrate our physical aversion to sitting still. Thoughts aren't a negative thing. They're just thoughts. Let them walk in and out. Just don't offer them tea.)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16125-Zazen-and-Breathing

ST,

Rakurei

[Mp]

Hello Zack,

A couple things in regards to your zazen feeling "ackward". 1. Do you use a proper sized zafu (or sitting item)? This is key to help the body find it's natural balance. 2. Hand position ... where do you have them? Do you have them in your lap with the zazen mudra? Again a lot of tension that one faces comes from their posture, so if you could help give some feedback that would help. =)

Also, we do have some wonderful videos for beginners in zazen ... here is one on the breathe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi5lh5Jls5g

More information and videos can be found here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...IKANTAZA-ZAZEN

But do lets us know a couple of those points.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Shugen]

Hi Zack,

A big hurdle for me was worrying too much about doing it exactly "right". It will feel a little awkward at first because you are doing something new. Just relax a bit if you can and keep at it! I began very much as you did. It will feel more natural the more you do it.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH


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[Zack]

To answer your questions, 1.) I do not use or own a zafu, but I used a small pillow and it helped me find a balance in my posture, and second, yes I have my hands in the zazen mudra in my lap, usually touching my stomach (Ive read your hands should be on top of your foot)
Thanks for the reply!


Sat today

[Zack]

I'll make sure to go through and take a look at the posts and videos. Thanks!



Sat today

[Mp]

To answer your questions, 1.) I do not use or own a zafu, but I used a small pillow and it helped me find a balance in my posture, and second, yes I have my hands in the zazen mudra in my lap, usually touching my stomach (Ive read your hands should be on top of your foot)
Thanks for the reply!


Sat today

Hey Zack,

Thanks for your replies ... for 1. it is fine to use a pillow or blanket, it doesn't need to be a zafu. The key though is to ensure that the pillow that you are using tilts your pelvis forward and not backwards. If the pillow is too soft it might not be giving you the proper support. Again, only you will know this, but try and see if it is tilting your pelvis. For 2. your hands usually sit on your foot or feet depending on how you are sitting (burmese, half lotus, or full lotus), but try not to "hold" your hands into a position ... it is ok that they rest on your lap or feet.

Hope that helps ... great advise from others as well. Shugen makes a very good point. Just sit and try not to look for or produce "good" zazen, this come sin time with practice. =) But also have a look at the videos Jundo has, as they are very good.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Eishuu]

Hi Zack,

Loads of great advice here...just wanted to add that if it's not the posture that is causing the stiffness in your back and shoulders then it could be that Zazen is making you aware of tension that is already there. If your posture is balanced then the tension may fall away naturally as you relax. If not then I find yoga can help to untangle deep knots and tensions. If the stiffness is just uncomfortable but not caused by or made worse by Zazen then maybe notice your resistance to it and include the experience in your field of awareness without pushing it away. The advice that people kept giving me when I started was 'relax'.

I have also found that if my hands are too far down it can aggitate my shoulders a bit, so I sometimes prop then up a bit with a cushion or jumper...it takes the strain off.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Rakurei]

I also recommend purchasing a proper zafu. Pillows are fine - but I found a huge improvement in my posture when I switched from a buckwheat to kapok zafus, so I can only imagine going from a pillow to something more firm would be a big help.

ST,

Rakurei

[Jishin]

Hi Zack,

A better way to look at the situation is that Shikantaza is not an object.

Not my Shikantaza, just Shikantaza.

Not my, not problem, just Shikantaza.

Not my 2 cents.

:-)

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Shinshou]

I'm going to dust off my yoga teacher hat for a minute and talk about my observations on posture, particularly "sitting up straight." True, whatever you're sitting on should tilt the pelvis forward. However, your rib cage/middle back shouldn't be pushing forward, but instead be reaching up off of the pelvis and low back. [It's called sitting up straight, not sitting pushing forward.] If your rib cage is being pushed forward, it stretches the lungs and makes a full exhalation impossible, greatly diminishing lung capacity. If you can breathe deeper when you slouch than when you sit up straight, chances are good you're pushing your ribs forward. Thinking of the torso as an actual 3 dimensional object that slightly stretches upward (including the back of the torso!) can help.

Not sure if that could be the "stiffness" that affects your breathing, but it may help someone.

Shinshou
Sat today

[Shoka]

Zack,

Another simple question, how long did you sit? Sometimes we like to start off with times that are just too long for our bodies were they are today.

I recently started back exercising after having to take a few weeks off to heal and injury. The first day felt awful because I was trying to go for the length and intensity that I did several months back before the injury. But my muscles, lungs and everything else weren't ready for that and I was burned out in a few minutes. The next time I went I started off much slower and gentler and everything felt better.

The same can be true for zazen, it is a position many of us are not used to. The muscles haven't worked that way before; sitting still and upright takes a lot of muscles. When I first started sitting I would only sit for a few minutes... seriously I think I started with 3 mins. Because longer than that and I was fighting my body too much. Each week I would add a few more seconds (maybe 15 or 30). If I got to the point that it was really uncomfortable I would go back. It was amazing how quickly my body learned to sit and relax in the position. But it does take time.

So maybe try a shorter time.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

PS - Hi Shinshou I'm also a yoga teacher (with a dusty hat). Great description on the torso movements.

[Kokuu]

Hi Zack

As Shingen has said, getting your posture right is a large part of this. Although sitting is neither right nor wrong, having your body sit comfortably makes everything a whole lot easier!

I would echo the calls to buy (or make) a zafu. It does make a big difference to have something that is right for the job.

As Eishuu says, sitting can make you aware of tension already there, or else you may be sitting with too much focus which makes you tense. As Buddha told a lute player, we should be like the strings of a lute - not too tight, not too loose. I also support her advice of trying something in your lap to rest your hands on to see if that makes a difference.

It's great to ask advice here. You have a community of people who sit regularly so someone is bound to have a good answer for you!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Zack]

Zack,

Another simple question, how long did you sit? Sometimes we like to start off with times that are just too long for our bodies were they are today.

I recently started back exercising after having to take a few weeks off to heal and injury. The first day felt awful because I was trying to go for the length and intensity that I did several months back before the injury. But my muscles, lungs and everything else weren't ready for that and I was burned out in a few minutes. The next time I went I started off much slower and gentler and everything felt better.

The same can be true for zazen, it is a position many of us are not used to. The muscles haven't worked that way before; sitting still and upright takes a lot of muscles. When I first started sitting I would only sit for a few minutes... seriously I think I started with 3 mins. Because longer than that and I was fighting my body too much. Each week I would add a few more seconds (maybe 15 or 30). If I got to the point that it was really uncomfortable I would go back. It was amazing how quickly my body learned to sit and relax in the position. But it does take time.

So maybe try a shorter time.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

PS - Hi Shinshou I'm also a yoga teacher (with a dusty hat). Great description on the torso movements.

I sat for about ten to fifteen minutes, I sat last night for five minutes and earlier in the day, I'm getting used to it, I've always had bad posture so hopefully, I can fix that.


Sat today