Concentration?????

[Charles]

Re: Concentration?????

You write about it as if it's a goal state or a reason to sit.

Show me where I've done that. I have written about bliss being helpful to practice, and being a positive experience (well, duh). But I know I've not written that it's the reason I sit or the point of my practice, because that's simply not true.

That's fair. I think the 'shortcut' comment implied that for me, but it's clear that's not what you meant.

My most inspirational text is The Myth of Sisyphus, for God's sake :lol:

Heh. We should start the unofficial Treeleaf angsty Buddhist reading list. (I'm half-serious. Maybe even three-quarters.)

Now when you get into all this stuff about "sitting without a point," I diverge from the Soto orthodoxy because I find it absurd. In my book, goals are good things. The problem is not having goals, it's not being able to accept when you can't or don't realize them.

I think there's a difference between goallessness in general and goallessness while sitting on the cushion. I also think that one can strive to change things while at the same time striving to be able to totally accept things as they are. This may be absurd. Absurdity doesn't really bother me though.

Saying, "I like a good Hefeweizen better than Bud Lite, and I'm willing to pay a little extra and drive a little further to find it," is fine. It's when you can only afford the Bud Lite, but keep on buying the high-end Hefeweizen until you get evicted for non-payment of rent that you've got a problem. Although I must admit I would find something strangely admirable in that :lol:

I resemble that remark. ops: (OK, not to quite that extreme. But too close for comfort.)

--Charles

[Jundo]

Re: Concentration?????

I think there's a difference between goallessness in general and goallessness while sitting on the cushion. I also think that one can strive to change things while at the same time striving to be able to totally accept things as they are. This may be absurd. Absurdity doesn't really bother me though.

Yes, this is very important. On the cushion, in Shikantaza, we drop all seeking, drop preferences, and have no goal whatsoever ... not for Bliss or Kensho or anything else. We drop all worries, thoughts, fears, ideas ... and this dropping will sometimes lead to Kensho, sometimes not. We don't care. We don't care because life is more than Kensho or bliss.

Of course, this dropping and not seeking reveals a treasure ... namely, life without need to change a hair on its little head.

Now, off the cushion, we can live having things we "like" and "dislike" while dropping "likes" and "dislikes" simultaneously. But on the cushion we only practice dropping "likes" and "dislikes". That is our Shikantaza way.

I am sorry if I was not clear about that.

Gassho, J

[Stephanie]

Re: Concentration?????

When you describe your experience of "Bliss" during Zazen, and your attitude toward that, in the way you described above ... it sounds very sound and healthy to me.

:shock:

Cool It feels healthy to me, but then again what do I know about "healthy"? ops: So I appreciate the feedback, sensei.

Yes, this is a classic peak experience, an opening and a taste of a flavor of "Kensho" in Zazen (What? Some folks thought we don't have Kensho in Soto Zen? Then you have not been paying attention). There are many flavors and varieties, and you seem to be describing the classic joy of release, of letting go and dropping the burden of the whole charade. I think most folks who sit for any length of time will experience these sooner or later, to deeper or lighter degrees ... sometimes very profound BIG RELEASE KENSHO!! As we become more attuned to sitting, we can learn to summon such bliss at will, almost like flipping a "Bliss" switch.

You put it really well. As should be the case, right? Deep respect and gassho.

I don't think I've ever had a "BIG RELEASE KENSHO!!" but what I have experienced in this vein has only reinforced all the Buddhist teachings I've ever read.

And, most importantly, you seem to understand too that, in our Soto philosophy, we don't make a big deal about it (compared to some Rinzai folks, for example, and other Eastern schools, who think it is all or mostly about achieving Kensho and bliss and "release"). You understand, by your words, that we believe that "Kensho" and peak experiences are Enlightenment, but also that no "Kensho" and no "peak experiences" are enlightenment. It is just as Bill says ...

Yes. I naturally gravitate toward the Soto approach overall. The one way in which I lean more the other way isn't out of a desire to experience some awesomely blissful experience... it's actually my hunger to know, to find an answer to what life is all about. I increasingly despair that there is such an answer, which has heightened my skepticism of the Rinzai approach, which brings us back to... Soto

Anyway, you seem to understanding this, and not excessively be seeking or craving "Bliss". So, I am thinking that your attitude toward what you experience is fine and balanced.

I don't crave bliss. What I do crave, as above, is some sort of knowledge or understanding that I'm no longer sure is possible... and if Buddhism won't cure me, nothing will.

Well, we shift the painful legs, seek to quiet the anger and excess emotions ... but simultaneously, we embrace the pain and emotions as being as wondrous as "Bliss". If you miss this half of the equation, you are missing the real beauty of Zen Practice I think.

Be one with your "Bliss". Be one with your aching legs, even as you try to get the blood flowing.

You know, the whole "Samsara is Nirvana" bit.

Gassho--

I think even though the angle I am coming from is a slightly different one, this is my main sticking point. Because I find life profoundly dissatisfying. And it's not because it's not blissful enough... I enjoy the challenge of pain and hardship as much as I enjoy the ease of bliss, I've always been of a somewhat dark turn of mind... what's difficult for me though is the fact I can't seem to reconcile myself with life. Because it doesn't seem to have much of a point. I think I would feel just as dissatisfied if I were sitting in a crystal palace getting my feet massaged. Some people seem to have no problem confronting absurdity and meaninglessness, seem to be able to accept a life without an ultimate meaning. I have a hard time.

There's a lot of things I've learned, a lot of things I've grown confident about, but I still often feel like a rudderless ship in a sea devoid of an ultimate direction. The powerful response I have to injustice, and the desire to strive to correct it, is one of the only things that gives me direction... precisely because I find pleasure ultimately so dissatisfying, no matter how good it is. But at the end of the day, while I don't doubt that not accepting injustice is a good thing, I do believe, I have to believe, that my inability to accept this life, is something that can be corrected, something that arises from something in me that is "off," not a reflection that life is a pointless exercise in futility, whose only justification is the pleasures in it, which mean so little to me.

Cool . . . maybe I'm just jealous. I've never experienced anything I would call bliss in zazen. Peace, yes. Acceptance, yes. Nothing as profound as bliss, unless a profoundly numb ass could be considered bliss.

:lol:

It can be... if your ass was in profound pain before :wink:

Seriously, it's all about letting go. "Dying on the cushion." I found it took some pretty intense stuff to push me to the point of letting go. We don't do it naturally; everything in you will put up a fight against it, like an antelope in a lion's claws. It's easier when you're facing down some pretty profound misery on and off the cushion. So it's a mixed blessing to discover the bliss of letting go. I'm not sure whether I wish that for you or not! :shock: But I suppose if you keep going, something in your life will happen that's really painful, that will help you get to that breaking point... or maybe you'll be fortunate enough that you can get there without all that! Who knows!

[Jundo]

Re: Concentration?????

Yes. I naturally gravitate toward the Soto approach overall. The one way in which I lean more the other way isn't out of a desire to experience some awesomely blissful experience... it's actually my hunger to know, to find an answer to what life is all about. I increasingly despair that there is such an answer, which has heightened my skepticism of the Rinzai approach, which brings us back to... Soto

Ah, sweetie ... what I am describing is precisely how we Soto folk find our "what life is about". I assure you. You will not find that answer in the bliss, in our view, but you will find A GREAT answer in the rest of what I'm describing. No foolin'.

Do you want to find "what life is about"? Drop your resistance to it. Your rejection of it. The judgments and separation you alone create.

It is just like your wanting to find out "what the wind is about". Drop your resistance to it. Your rejection of it. The judgments and separation you along create (even as you seek not to be blown over).

That's how we Soto folks roll.

Gassho, J

[Dojin]

Re: Concentration?????

And good luck living without goals... even Jeff Lebowski wanted his rug back :lol:

well it really tied up the room

Yes. I naturally gravitate toward the Soto approach overall. The one way in which I lean more the other way isn't out of a desire to experience some awesomely blissful experience... it's actually my hunger to know, to find an answer to what life is all about. I increasingly despair that there is such an answer, which has heightened my skepticism of the Rinzai approach, which brings us back to... Soto

Hey Steph, dont know know that the answer to life the universe and everything is....... 42 :lol:

but really now.

for a long long time i have felt just like you do. to tell you the truth life actually managed to break me...
a few times even.
i ended up a broken, angry, lost, mean, annoyed, spiteful, dissatisfied person...
hell i was even suicidal ( actually tried it, almost succeeded ).

anyway, for a long time i just couldnt find a reason for anything, i couldnt find a place for myself in the world. when i started practicing meditation it was just this thing that i tried to make me feel better.
with time i read an article about zen Buddhism that actually interested me. so i started reading more and more about it. in the end i decided to start practicing ( or at least try the zen meditation ), i chose soto as my way because i couldnt think of a way of working on koans without a teacher ( i was young and new nothing, i am still young and still know nothing ).
well with time i started to understand some things and have my own conceptions of what zen should be like. and what this should be like, and what that should be like.
and with time the more i practiced ( taking my practice beyond the cushion ) i started to realize that my conceptions were wrong, and i started to make some new conceptions.
at one point i couldnt see how i could practice zen Buddhism without giving up everything i love, and like... i just wouldnt for the life of me give up those things... my mind wouldnt let go of them.... how could i ever give up on love, on joy, on friends, on well pretty much life?! if they are all things to be dropped i would rather not drop them.
and my practice came to a screeching halt!
i noticed i do not "progress" in my practice, i was at a stand still... i still sat and i still tried to living according to what i knew but i just started accepting the fact i would never reach enlightenment and i would never finish the journey i started, i will forever be stuck at that point with my practice.
and i began becoming dissatisfied again, this lasted for almost a year, maybe even more.
eventually i came to realized that its pointless, i should judge my practice. the same way i drop all judgment during shikantaza, i could actually drop them in my daily life, yet i could still keep them, i began to see that there was no duality.
around that time i joined Treeleaf ( thank you all for having me ).
after listening to Jundo's talks daily, i came to believe ( and actually see ) that everything is just as it is... nothing more nothing less..

i cant even explain what i feel or know, i just dont know anything... and i just gave up. it is like spreading your hands and falling off a cliff. to trust everything without even the need to know what it is. to truly be liberated from the illusion of control.


i feel like i just wrote an autobiography, i wanted to say so much yet the more i wrote i noticed i get further and further from the point. words are lacking to express the inexpressible... so allow me to say this!

Gassho, Daniel ( who have spoken too much ).

[AlanLa]

Re: Concentration?????

Wow, quite a “concentrated” (and worthwhile) discussion on bliss. This is something my practice has never concentrated on, but I have experienced those little release or relief moments before, many times actually, but nothing I would consider bliss. Y’all (Texas talk) will be the first to know if I do.

As for my original questions:

If you have developed the ability to sit for 30 or 40 minutes without moving, holding the mind open, paying attention not to get caught up in thoughts and to just allow each to drift away ... well, I would say that if you can do that, you have developed your ability to sit still and concentrate quite a bit.

Good to know! Thanks. Gassho.

The balance between concentration and awareness/mindfulness that many of you described was very helpful. So was the idea of field concentration rather than single point concentration. All of this was known to me, but I needed the reminders. I think I let my mind get stuck on (concentrated on) this single point issue, whereas I know better that concentration is not a singular issue.

I think one of the struggles of Buddhism is the issue of language. Buddhists don’t seem to use words the same way as the rest of the world. It is difficult to put personal spiritual experiences into words that those without such experiences will fully understand. I just finished watching Jundo today talk about the five skandas and how we cut the world up and attach all sorts of judgments to things, and this applies especially to language, and even more so to language printed on a computer screen. Take the word bliss for example. Oh yeah, we just did. :wink: The value then becomes discovery of just what do we mean when we say concentration, or bliss, or whatever. I guess all we can do is concentrate on being aware during that process.

Gassho,
AL