Concentration?????

[Stephanie]

Re: Concentration?????

You're falling into good lockstep, Zen :wink:

Where did I say anything about bliss being the point of zazen? Or the most important thing? All I said was that it's something that can happen in zazen and that it is awesome. 8)

Should I start saying "neener neener" to all of you who not only don't get bliss yourselves, but seem to be bothered by the fact I do? :twisted:

Y'all square zazen-sitters need to get hip to this bliss thing, man... it's far out... :lol:

[Dojin]

Re: Concentration?????

You're falling into good lockstep, Zen :wink:

Sir, Yes Sir!!!!!

its not that i follow i just dont care about bliss as nice as it might be ( and i sure am fond of feeling blissful ) its just not what i am after...

Where did I say anything about bliss being the point of zazen? Or the most important thing? All I said was that it's something that can happen in zazen and that it is awesome. 8)

awesome is kinda judging so it is kinda the thing we should be dropping. but hey if it happens, it happens.... i will be happy about ti later... just not during zazen :lol:

[Stephanie]

Re: Concentration?????

Good luck with this dropping of judgement thing, Zen. Though I wouldn't recommend it right before crossing the street, or deciding whether or not to send money to that nice person who e-mailed you from Nigeria, or before just about anything, really... :lol:

[Jundo]

Re: Concentration?????

Good luck with this dropping of judgement thing, Zen. Though I wouldn't recommend it right before crossing the street, or deciding whether or not to send money to that nice person who e-mailed you from Nigeria, or before just about anything, really... :lol:

Hi Steph,

In our Zen Practice, we drop judgments and preferences. We also learn how to drop without dropping. We do both at once. In "Just Sitting" Zazen, we drop all judgments and learn to live from such perspective, but people often misunderstand what this really means. Of course, if we are to live as human beings, we must have preferences and make choices. Otherwise, we can't function. We could not choose to stand up or sit down, wait for the green light to "go" instead of running red lights, we could not even choose to get out of bed in the morning.

So, how to do both at once? Ah, this is one of the great discoveries of Zen Buddhism, namely, that folks can live on a couple or more "channels" (for want of a better term) at once, seemingly conflicting viewpoints without conflict.

How?

Well, for example, we drop all "likes" and "dislikes" on one channel, even as we must have "likes" and "dislikes" on another. The result is
like choosing what you like, and avoiding what you dislike, but fully accepting either one ... all at the same time. For example, you go into
life's ice cream store and ask for vanilla. But all they have is strawberry, which you hate. You embrace the fact that life sometimes
gives strawberry. When vanilla, eat vanilla, when strawberry ... savor the strawberry.

Do you see a bit how that works? Most folks think that you must only live on one channel or the other.

HOWEVER, during Zazen itself, we practice dropping all preferences PERIOD. In life, we can live having both preferences and no preferences, but in Shikantaza, we just practice having no preferences. This is very important.

So, I must agree with our Israeli friend, and all those other Japanese and Western Zen teachers. While there is nothing better or worse about "bliss" versus the absence of "bliss", we do not seek out either one or the other in Zazen. If it comes, it comes ... if not, not. And being at home with that is true Bliss. Zazen & life (not two things) that "feels good" is just Zazen and life ... Zazen and life that does not "feel good" is just Zazen and life. Being attached to bliss, or pleasure, or what feels good ... and seeking them out in Zazen ... is not good Zazen in our Way. Our Zazen is non-seeking Zazen. As he said ...

the thing is that bliss has nothing to do with our practice. it is just bliss nothing more or less and it is not constant.

it is great to actually feel good, but it if we keep running towards the good and trying to escape the bad we just miss the whole point.

Anyway, I know a guy on the corner who sells some pills that will get you to "bliss" much faster than Zazen. Instead, Zen teachers sell something much more profound.

Where did I say anything about bliss being the point of zazen? Or the most important thing? All I said was that it's something that can happen in zazen and that it is awesome.

I sometimes experience bliss, and sometime I do not experience bliss. NOT experiencing bliss is also "awesome"!

Gassho, Jundo

Ps- Harry, this was lovely ...

The thought which I sometimes 'drop into' in Zazen is not 'concentrated', its wide open and free, but you couldn't slip anything past it, it doesn't miss a trick; its not spaced-out or dumb... that's how I normally am off the cushion tho :cry: .

[Stephanie]

Re: Concentration?????

Jundo, I understand all of this. What I'm reacting to here is how almost invariably I get a lecture when I mention that I experience bliss sometimes when I sit. People project things onto what I say, and make assumptions that aren't true. I don't consider it "bad zazen" if there is no bliss; I don't "chase" it when I get on the cushion. But it happens. And I like it. Those two things seem to be enough to unleash an avalanche of finger-wagging that leaves me scratching my head. My suspicion is that people drag some Puritan baggage to their Zen practice, thinking it is some sort of truth, when it's not. At all. Which is why I say, "It's okay to feel good. Really."

That said, I understand the importance of what you are teaching here. My life is often pretty painful and full of disappointment, and learning how to be less reactive to that, and to experience peace independent of external conditions, is one of the great gifts of my Zen practice. But let me take a moment and say also that experiencing bliss in meditation is something that has helped with this, not hindered it. Bliss in meditation (at least what I have experienced) only arises in the wake of letting go. It strangely seems to follow most closely after pain, hurt, and sadness. Because those things facilitate letting go.

"Letting go" is becoming an annoying Buddhist buzzword, so let me be clear what I mean when I use the phrase. I mean something more than not chasing after good and not running away from bad. It's the willingness and the experience of dropping the whole charade, everything. What you thought about yourself, life, everything. This ain't easy. It hurts. It's scary. But when you can do it, you feel the same way you feel if you've been carrying something heavy for a long time and finally can set it down. It's a feeling of incredible lightness flooding your mind and body. But it's not some easygoing la-dee-dah feeling either. It's intense. The most intensely pleasurable thing I've ever experienced. You'd think then that I would be wanting to sit zazen all the time, but not so... because what has to happen first ain't so nice. But yet, that almost invariably unpleasant process of letting go is what to me is the "meat" of zazen.

Bliss in meditation is a good teacher. We are creatures of pleasure and pain first and foremost, and we learn best from them. There is no well-argued philosophy that could make the point about the Buddha's teaching as well as the intense pleasure that arises from letting go of what the Buddha taught was the primary source of our suffering. And being able to create, or at least tap into, your own pleasure that is not dependent on outer conditions, helps make you more skeptical about all the other pleasurable things human beings tend to chase after, all of the things our crazy consumer societies try to sell us. Needing less, then, you can live more simply and thus less harmfully. And the thing about meditative bliss that makes it different from a drug high is that it's not at all fuzzy and doesn't make you fuzzy. Not only are there no adverse side effects, but it also enhances, rather than diminishes, your clarity. It is the Good Stuff.

And the Buddha taught it that way. Tibetan and Theravada Buddhists know that the Buddha taught about bliss in meditation and have no problem teaching it themselves. It seems it's only Zen really, out of the major traditions rooted in the practice of meditation, that has this weird "no-no" attitude about it. Why that is, I don't know, but it's Zen's loss.

[Eika]

Re: Concentration?????

It is the Good Stuff.
And the Buddha taught it that way. Tibetan and Theravada Buddhists know that the Buddha taught about bliss in meditation and have no problem teaching it themselves. It seems it's only Zen really, out of the major traditions rooted in the practice of meditation, that has this weird "no-no" attitude about it. Why that is, I don't know, but it's Zen's loss.

Tibetan and Theravada Buddhism also have a different way of doing many things (oracles, completely different roles for laypersons, etc). They have their way that works with their way. It is probably not effective to mix and match practices too much. Maybe recognizing, and therefore creating attention to, bliss works in a tradition that is based on multiple rebirths for laypeople before reaching the level to achieve enlightenment. But Zen's way is to see that zazen is enlightenment--all of it and it is available to everyone, right now (pretty different that Tibetan and Theravadan practices that focus on achievement). So bliss is no more important than the pain in the legs or the burp that happens during zazen. It is all stuff to see and let go. The "good stuff" is all of it. So to defend bliss as a recognizable, distinct phenomenon is to elevate its importance--to create an object of clinging. You are free to see my post as following in "lock step" with the teacher (who, by the way is as fallible as all of us) but I truly see it this way. You are correct that in your original post you were simply making an observation, and at that point I think you were correct. Defending bliss, as you go on to do, however, actually weakens the argument that it is not a seductive state, prone to creating a goal.

Bill

[Stephanie]

Re: Concentration?????

Tibetan and Theravada Buddhism also have a different way of doing many things (oracles, completely different roles for laypersons, etc). They have their way that works with their way. It is probably not effective to mix and match practices too much. Maybe recognizing, and therefore creating attention to, bliss works in a tradition that is based on multiple rebirths for laypeople before reaching the level to achieve enlightenment. But Zen's way is to see that zazen is enlightenment--all of it and it is available to everyone, right now (pretty different that Tibetan and Theravadan practices that focus on achievement). So bliss is no more important than the pain in the legs or the burp that happens during zazen. It is all stuff to see and let go. The "good stuff" is all of it. So to defend bliss as a recognizable, distinct phenomenon is to elevate its importance--to create an object of clinging. You are free to see my post as following in "lock step" with the teacher (who, by the way is as fallible as all of us) but I truly see it this way. You are correct that in your original post you were simply making an observation, and at that point I think you were correct. Defending bliss, as you go on to do, however, actually weakens the argument that it is not a seductive state, prone to creating a goal.

Actually, none of what you wrote applies. Did you read my post? You seem a little bit angry; perhaps you should try some bliss? :mrgreen:

And good luck living without goals... even Jeff Lebowski wanted his rug back :lol:

And, psst... having a goal to achieve bliss is counter-productive, because you have to let go of all your hopes first to experience it.

Also, defending 'goallessness' or 'seeing zazen as enlightenment itself' is no different than defending bliss. It's just that you like a different flavor of Baskin Robbins than I do. And of course, you're obviously wrong, 'cause my flava is way better than yours :wink: :lol:

[Eika]

Re: Concentration?????

And good luck living without goals... even Jeff Lebowski wanted his rug back

No one said we should be without goals in life, dude.

Did you read my post?

Nah, I just wrote some stuff that I thought would tick you off. Actually, I can't read. I let me computer voice speak the forum, then I have my assistant type a pre-written response from the Lock-Step Guide to Sycophant Zen.

Actually, none of what you wrote applies.

Well, at least you are not dismissing it.

Also, defending 'goallessness' or 'seeing zazen as enlightenment itself' is no different than defending bliss.

I'm not defending those, they are not being attacked by anyone.

And, psst... having a goal to achieve bliss is counter-productive, because you have to let go of all your hopes first to experience it.

That sounds right to me.

Some Zen teachers do talk about bliss. Maybe they just don't care about it like you do.
Anger is one kind of condition. Bliss is another condition. The sensation of transparency is still another, sleepiness another, and so on. These conditions are only superficial waves of the sea of your mind. They are the context of your practice. . .When you are angry, have angry zazen. . . When you are in a blissful condition, have blissful zazen. When you congratulate yourself on your blissful condition, it disappears immediately. Taking the Path of Zen, Robert Aitken, p. 47.

Would you also say, "The pain in my legs is the Good Stuff," or "Angry zazen is the Good Stuff?" It is all Good Stuff . . . bliss, farts, migraines, cancer, death, birth, responsibilities, even reality TV. We accept it all (or in my case, work to inch my way closer to accepting them--except for maybe the Rebel flag). To reject nothing suggests that we elevate nothing as well.

Bill

BTW--I'm not angry at all . . . I enjoy actual debate as opposed to personalized bickering.

[Charles]

Re: Concentration?????

Stephanie,

This may be presumptuous, but I think you're reading anger where there isn't any. You asked some interesting questions -- such as, "Is it that Puritan ethic that anything that feels good has to be evil or problematic?" And people are offering answers. I don't think they're angry ones.

For my part, I don't think people jump on you for mentioning that you sometimes experience bliss during meditation. (If they do, that's silly. We're all going to experience all sorts of things while sitting; there's no avoiding that.) But that's not what prompts the reaction at all. It's that when you write about bliss experienced during zazen, you write about it as if it's a goal state or a reason to sit. You write about taking shortcuts to the good stuff. And when people read that, I think that they think, 'Wow, that's not this practice.' And so they tell you, 'That's not this practice.' Where's the anger?

The answer to the question of whether or not this is about a 'Puritan ethic' is, 'no.' No, things that feel good don't have to be evil or problematic. In fact, things that feel good really make me feel good! Bliss is great. So is sex. And -- horror of horrors, I know -- I have a serious weakness for good pipe tobacco (no, not the icky flavored stuff everyone in America thinks of as pipe tobacco). Not to mention good beer. And good music. And all sorts of other stuff that makes me feel good. It's all a lot of fun. And also, chasing any of these things, or chasing bliss, isn't Zen practice. (I think.)

--Charles

[Stephanie]

Re: Concentration?????

Nah, I just wrote some stuff that I thought would tick you off. Actually, I can't read. I let me computer voice speak the forum, then I have my assistant type a pre-written response from the Lock-Step Guide to Sycophant Zen.

That's some very non-Buddhist snark you've got going on there... I like it! :mrgreen:

Well, at least you are not dismissing it.

Uh-oh, it's time for the "neener neener" contest! :lol:

When you congratulate yourself on your blissful condition, it disappears immediately. -Taking the Path of Zen, Robert Aitken, p. 47.

That is very accurate.

Would you also say, "The pain in my legs is the Good Stuff"...?

No, I wouldn't. If there was something I could do nothing about, I would learn to accept it. But if I could prevent injury and stop pain by shifting my position, I would shift my position. (I almost damaged my knees in one sesshin--they hurt for days--because of the attitude I thought I was supposed to cultivate toward my pain. Nowadays, I just see that attitude as a form of stupidity).

As for anger--if my anger was in response to a dysfunctional situation that needed to be corrected, I would do what I could and what was possible to correct it. In zazen, I wouldn't try to change or stop the anger, because in the moment of zazen, anger is irrelevant. But if the rising of anger directed my awareness to something off the cushion in need of correcting, after zazen, I would bow to my cushion, and go off to see what I could do to correct it. I find a live a much less dysfunctional life these days now that I actually take on the unpleasant work of addressing and working to resolve "bad" situations, instead of telling myself I need to learn to accept them. It's actually much easier and less stressful to address stuff with people than to fight against your own painful emotions, which often are telling you that something is wrong. And of course, where Buddhist practice comes in is that there are wise ways to do this that ultimately promote harmony and reconciliation, rather than escalation and violence.

[Jundo]

Re: Concentration?????

Hi Steph,

When you describe your experience of "Bliss" during Zazen, and your attitude toward that, in the way you described above ... it sounds very sound and healthy to me.

... It strangely seems to follow most closely after pain, hurt, and sadness. Because those things facilitate letting go.

"Letting go" is becoming an annoying Buddhist buzzword, so let me be clear what I mean when I use the phrase. I mean something more than not chasing after good and not running away from bad. It's the willingness and the experience of dropping the whole charade, everything. What you thought about yourself, life, everything. This ain't easy. It hurts. It's scary. But when you can do it, you feel the same way you feel if you've been carrying something heavy for a long time and finally can set it down. It's a feeling of incredible lightness flooding your mind and body. But it's not some easygoing la-dee-dah feeling either. It's intense. The most intensely pleasurable thing I've ever experienced. You'd think then that I would be wanting to sit zazen all the time, but not so... because what has to happen first ain't so nice. But yet, that almost invariably unpleasant process of letting go is what to me is the "meat" of zazen.

Yes, this is a classic peak experience, an opening and a taste of a flavor of "Kensho" in Zazen (What? Some folks thought we don't have Kensho in Soto Zen? Then you have not been paying attention). There are many flavors and varieties, and you seem to be describing the classic joy of release, of letting go and dropping the burden of the whole charade. I think most folks who sit for any length of time will experience these sooner or later, to deeper or lighter degrees ... sometimes very profound BIG RELEASE KENSHO!! As we become more attuned to sitting, we can learn to summon such bliss at will, almost like flipping a "Bliss" switch.

And, most importantly, you seem to understand too that, in our Soto philosophy, we don't make a big deal about it (compared to some Rinzai folks, for example, and other Eastern schools, who think it is all or mostly about achieving Kensho and bliss and "release"). You understand, by your words, that we believe that "Kensho" and peak experiences are Enlightenment, but also that no "Kensho" and no "peak experiences" are Enlightenment. It is just as Bill says ...

So bliss is no more important than the pain in the legs or the burp that happens during zazen. It is all stuff to see and let go. The "good stuff" is all of it. So to defend bliss as a recognizable, distinct phenomenon is to elevate its importance--to create an object of clinging.
...
Would you also say, "The pain in my legs is the Good Stuff," or "Angry zazen is the Good Stuff?" It is all Good Stuff . . . bliss, farts, migraines, cancer, death, birth, responsibilities, even reality TV.

In Soto Practice, we tend to have a Kensho, yawn and move on with life ... it is a lovely point of reference, like the view from the top of a mountain. But we then climb back down the mountain into the valley of our lives. Of course, it is lovely to make the trip to the peak of the mountain from time to time.

Anyway, you seem to understanding this, and not excessively be seeking or craving "Bliss". So, I am thinking that your attitude toward what you experience is fine and balanced.

Gassho, Jundo

[Eika]

Re: Concentration?????

Cool . . . maybe I'm just jealous. I've never experienced anything I would call bliss in zazen. Peace, yes. Acceptance, yes. Nothing as profound as bliss, unless a profoundly numb ass could be considered bliss.

Bill

[Jundo]

Re: Concentration?????

Hi again Steph,

Well, I need to put in a little caution though ...

No, I wouldn't. If there was something I could do nothing about, I would learn to accept it. But if I could prevent injury and stop pain by shifting my position, I would shift my position. (I almost damaged my knees in one sesshin--they hurt for days--because of the attitude I thought I was supposed to cultivate toward my pain. Nowadays, I just see that attitude as a form of stupidity).

As for anger--if my anger was in response to a dysfunctional situation that needed to be corrected, I would do what I could and what was possible to correct it. In zazen, I wouldn't try to change or stop the anger, because in the moment of zazen, anger is irrelevant.

Well, we shift the painful legs, seek to quiet the anger and excess emotions ... but simultaneously, we embrace the pain and emotions as being as wondrous as "Bliss". If you miss this half of the equation, you are missing the real beauty of Zen Practice I think.

Be one with your "Bliss". Be one with your aching legs, even as you try to get the blood flowing.

You know, the whole "Samsara is Nirvana" bit.

Gassho, Jundo

[Stephanie]

Re: Concentration?????

This may be presumptuous, but I think you're reading anger where there isn't any.

To be clear, my comment to Bill was just meant to be comically, intentionally annoying. Not very Buddhist, I know :wink:

For my part, I don't think people jump on you for mentioning that you sometimes experience bliss during meditation.

Well, "jump on" might not be the best way to put it. It's just more of a knee-jerk reaction that I see over and over again in Zen circles. Mention "bliss" and brace yourself on a lecture about how bliss isn't the point. Even if you never said it was.

You write about it as if it's a goal state or a reason to sit.

Show me where I've done that. I have written about bliss being helpful to practice, and being a positive experience (well, duh). But I know I've not written that it's the reason I sit or the point of my practice, because that's simply not true. I come to practice crawling, out of intense suffering and need. A less happy-go-lucky, blissed-out Buddhist you will struggle to find. My most inspirational text is The Myth of Sisyphus, for God's sake :lol:

You write about taking shortcuts to the good stuff. And when people read that, I think that they think, 'Wow, that's not this practice.' And so they tell you, 'That's not this practice.'

Fair enough. To clarify, in my practice, bliss is a beacon signal that the technique I've adopted is effective. Not because bliss is the point, but bliss arises in the wake of letting go, which is (to me, at least) the point. Now when you get into all this stuff about "sitting without a point," I diverge from the Soto orthodoxy because I find it absurd. In my book, goals are good things. The problem is not having goals, it's not being able to accept when you can't or don't realize them.

Bliss is great. So is sex. And -- horror of horrors, I know -- I have a serious weakness for good pipe tobacco (no, not the icky flavored stuff everyone in America thinks of as pipe tobacco). Not to mention good beer. And good music. And all sorts of other stuff that makes me feel good. It's all a lot of fun.

Thank Buddha! A sane person is in the room!

And also, chasing any of these things, or chasing bliss, isn't Zen practice. (I think.)

I agree wholeheartedly. Because what then would be the point of Zen practice? To me, the focus of practice isn't working on liking those things any less, but zeroing in on that "chase" bit. It's not desire that is the problem; it's craving. It's the transformation in the mind of a want to a need. That's when things get ugly, and unpleasant. Saying, "I like a good Hefeweizen better than Bud Lite, and I'm willing to pay a little extra and drive a little further to find it," is fine. It's when you can only afford the Bud Lite, but keep on buying the high-end Hefeweizen until you get evicted for non-payment of rent that you've got a problem. Although I must admit I would find something strangely admirable in that :lol: Seriously though, to me, practice is about becoming wiser. And liking some things better than others is, to me, wisdom. It's this desperate attachment to having things a certain way that is where stupidity comes in, where we create so much unnecessary suffering for ourselves.

[Jundo]

Re: Concentration?????

Bliss is fine and good.

But you must not push away the unpleasant parts of sitting or life (not separate things, by the way). Even as you push them away, you must not push them away.

If you are pushing things away and rejecting things, your practice is unbalanced. If you are pushing things away and rejecting things, all while simultaneously pushing nothing away and rejecting none of it, you practice is profound. Please know that difference. True Zen Practice is the latter, life simultaneously with judgments and nothing to judge. This is, for us, the true meaning of "goalless" practice.

The "bliss" "Kensho" "peak experience" thingy is only one bit of Zazen scenery. A beautiful, educational, pleasant, lovely bit of scenery ... but we do not live in "la la land" alone. We must live in life in all its complexity and difficulty.

The Rinzai folks (at least the smart ones) say the same thing, by the way. An opening or insight or "dropping away" is only one taste of Zazen and life.

Gassho, Jundo