Concentration?????

[AlanLa]

How much is concentration a part of our practice while sitting?

All the Buddhist stuff I've read over the years seems to clearly imply, if not come right out and say so directly, that sitting is supposed to increase your concentration over time. That is, while sitting, you will eventually be able to concentrate better and for longer and longer periods of time, to focus more on and reside in that still space. Well, I've been sitting for four years and it seems my mind wanders as much as it ever has. I feel no increase in concentration (singular focus) while sitting at all. I feel I have gained much from my practice, but an increase in concentration level or quality does not seem to be part of those gains. This has begun to bug me, thus disturbing my practice. Today while sitting I realized that this was a desire that was causing suffering, so I let it go. Ahh, OK. Then, because I couldn't concentrate, I realized that I needed to let go of the idea of concentration entirely. Ahh, this was very good! But then, because I couldn't concentrate, the commentary came back to say, "no, really, what about concentration?"

Am I missing something? Should I be doing something different?
Is this even an issue? Shikantaza being letting thoughts come and go seems to imply that there is no concentration, sort of thinking non-thinking, right? So is it concentrating on not concentrating? But then have I misunderstood all those references to concentration?
Is concentration even the right word? Is awareness a better term? Because that has increased a great deal over the years. I think I can say that I am able to concentrate on being more deeply aware, but my mind still often wanders away from awareness.

OK, I better stop here. So, what's the deal?

GASSHO,
AL

[Jundo]

Re: Concentration?????

How much is concentration a part of our practice while sitting?

All the Buddhist stuff I've read over the years seems to clearly imply, if not come right out and say so directly, that sitting is supposed to increase your concentration over time. That is, while sitting, you will eventually be able to concentrate better and for longer and longer periods of time, to focus more on and reside in that still space.

... Shikantaza being letting thoughts come and go seems to imply that there is no concentration, sort of thinking non-thinking, right? So is it concentrating on not concentrating? But then have I misunderstood all those references to concentration?
Is concentration even the right word? Is awareness a better term? Because that has increased a great deal over the years. I think I can say that I am able to concentrate on being more deeply aware, but my mind still often wanders away from awareness.

Hi Al,

It is an interesting question. Many forms of meditation, including some forms of Zazen, emphasize "one pointed concentration", for example, focusing on repetition of a Mantra or Koan with all one's attention, focusing on an image of a Bodhisattva held in the mind, letting the object completely fill one's attention for long periods. MRI and related studies on Tibetan monks who do visual imagery meditation have shown that they have an amazing ability to pay attention and recall detail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4613759.stm

However, in Shikantaza, we emphasize wide open awareness of "everything and nothing", focused on nothing in particular yet awake and seeing everything around and within us. We do this while sitting still for long periods, allowing the thoughts to settle down and paying attention not to get wrapped up in our thoughts and emotions when they do arise during Zazen.

Now, if you have developed the ability to sit for 30 or 40 minutes without moving, holding the mind open, paying attention not to get caught up in thoughts and to just allow each to drift away ... well, I would say that if you can do that, you have developed your ability to sit still and concentrate quite a bit. It might not involve the same skills as the Tibetans, but a good form of of concentration it is nonetheless.

Maybe other experienced folks would have some input on this?

Gassho, Jundo

[John]

Re: Concentration?????

I read this in a book called 'Mindfulness in Plain English' :

“Vipassana meditation is something of a mental balancing act. You are going to be cultivating two separate qualities of the mind--mindfulness and concentration. Ideally these two work together as a team. They pull in tandem, so to speak. Therefore it is important to cultivate them side-by-side and in a balanced manner. If one of the factors is strengthened at the expense of the other, the balance of the mind is lost and meditation impossible.
Concentration and mindfulness are distinctly different functions. They each have their role to play in meditation, and the relationship between them is definite and delicate. Concentration is often called one-pointedness of mind. It consists of forcing the mind to remain on one static point. Please note the word FORCE.
Concentration is pretty much a forced type of activity. It can be developed by force, by sheer unremitting willpower. And once developed, it retains some of that forced flavor. Mindfulness, on the other hand, is a delicate function leading to refined sensibilities. These two are partners in the job of meditation. Mindfulness is the sensitive one. He notices things. Concentration provides the power. He keeps the attention pinned down to one item. Ideally, mindfulness is in this relationship. Mindfulness picks the objects of attention, and notices when the attention has gone astray. Concentration does the actual work of holding the attention steady on that chosen object. If either of these partners is weak, your meditation goes astray….”

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Vene ... centration

Gunaratana splits meditation into two parts but I think he is just describing Shikantaza a different way. The part where we are 'paying attention not to get caught up in thoughts', as Jundo says, is really just another way of describing concentration - what do you think?

I have been practicing for about 4 years too and I notice that I have been allowing myself to drift away in my thoughts too much, so I have tried to become more diligent,

Gassho,
John

[Eika]

Re: Concentration?????

In planetary orbits there are these little zones called Lagrange Points where the forces of gravity of various relevant bodies precisely cancel one another creating a spot of stasis for any objects in it. For instance, between the Earth and the Moon is a point where the gravity of the Earth is exactly (yes, I know we have to factor the Sun, Jupiter, etc. but this is a simplified example) countered by the pull of the Moon. Objects clump up in these Lagrange points because there is nothing to disturb them.

Maybe Zen Lagrange points are the itsy-bitsy areas where our pull toward getting caught up in our thinking and our lazy, inattentive mind and all of the other mental forces are in precise balance. A place of almost point-like size where, once there, we can float along undisturbed.

Maybe . . . it has been 20 years since I had Calculus and Physics so I may be getting this mixed up with the chord changes to "Giant Steps."

Gassho,
Bill

[Shugen]

Re: Concentration?????

Bill,
Great description! Every once in a while when sitting, everything just balances; the thoughts stop and I am aware of the stopping but I'm not thinking to my self " wow, I've stopped thinking" and it is almost effortless.Of course, it usually only happens for a little while and the thoughts start up again.

Is it a type of concentration? I think so. Will it make me less distracted? I don't know.

Ron

[Shui_Di]

Re: Concentration?????

Hi, Alan

I think a concentration meditation can give you a calm mind. That's good.

But, I think that's not the essence of Zen.

In Zen, we learn to drop the self, and if the self has been dropped away, who will do the concentration, who will feel calm or not-calm...

But, i don't mean that concentration meditation is wrong, but in my opinion, it's not the way of Shikantaza.

If there is one dualistic thinking arise (about good or bad, right or wrong), then it can make us confuse.

Just Sit and let every thing come or go without being attached, I think that's the way of shikantaza.

Well... these are my opinions..... . I hope it helps.

Gassho, Shui Di...

[Aswini]

Re: Concentration?????

I too am a little curious as to the concentration aspect of shikatanza. I'm not quite sure how it fits in.

I learned as mentioned in the previous post that concentration and insight (vipassana/obervation) are two ''messengers to the heart" and it is important to keep both in balance. One of my teachers encouraged that both be practiced in a timetable so one practice is not given more emphasis than the other.

I think when it comes to concentration, that yes if one practice concentration on the breath or whatever the object of awareness (mantra, chanting, koan etc) then definitely over time the level of concentration should improve. I have not done concentration exercises of this nature over a long period of time, however did go to a mettha (loving kindness) meditation retreat and there was a clear and difference in my state of mind with regards to concentration. Also when I did the Goenka Vipassana retreat the first 3 days were just concentrating on the breath, and there was a definite change in the level of concentration. Given that it was done in conditions without daily worries that did not impinge on one's state of mind.

It is important not to get too caught up in the level of concentration but just to stick to whatever you are practicing at the moment, and if concentration is lacking, then I guess to focus on that area a litte more.

It would appear Shikatanza because it is not solely concentration based does not improve or work on that aspect of the mind so much as a purely concentration meditation would. There is no denying some level of concentration is obviously needed.

It all depends on the individual I guess. For me, Shikatanza practice is useful, practice and beneficial. I may incorporate concentration exercises more formally but mettha meditation and shikatanza for the moment are just fine.

Mettha.

Aswini.

[Dojin]

Re: Concentration?????

I cant really say that shikantaza helped me in becoming more concentrated, but it did help me find become more aware. it is a very passive thing that is rooted deep inside and is definitely not conscious,but rather always present and effects the way i perceive the world and everything that happens.

maybe there is some concentration in this since i could mindfully remind myself of certain things sometimes ( such as self control ). but mostly i dont think about it. i just allow myself to be...

when i sit zazen it happens that i feel empty for short periods of time without any thoughts arising. at first i as afraid of such things, since it was unknown to me. it was an elimination of the self.
after a few times i longed for such experiences, since i thought it is what i should feel or strive to.
eventually i realized that it is just what is... i feel what i feel and should not cling to it. so if i sit and i happen to experience such emotions, feelings, sensations or anything else that might come up during zazen, i just sit with it.
i dont judge it and dont cling. it is all part of zazen and should not be view any other than any other thing that is being viewed.

maybe it isnt exactly what was asked and it sounds like a rambling of someone who cant concentrate to give a straight answer... but its the best i could come up with.

forgive me if i have wasted your time.
Gassho.

[Eika]

Re: Concentration?????

To clarify, I think what I was trying to suggest was that it requires concentration to stay in that small, point-like place where our mental activities balance and therefore drop away.

Zen wrote:
I cant really say that shikantaza helped me in becoming more concentrated, but it did help me find become more aware. it is a very passive thing that is rooted deep inside and is definitely not conscious,but rather always present and effects the way i perceive the world and everything that happens.

I agree Zen, except I am suggesting that maintaining awareness requires a mental skill best called concentration. "Attention" might be a substitute, but I think both words imply a cognitive focus on an object, thereby sacrificing awareness of all things that aren't the object. So maybe attention in shikantaza becomes field-like instead of point-like. Sorry for all of the arm-chair physics stuff. I don't know why that's where my head is right now. :roll:

Gassho,
Bill

[Eika]

Re: Concentration?????

If Shikantazatranslates as "just sitting", wouldn't it make sense that the focus is on the wholistic body posture of sitting? This seems to be what Uchiyama, Sawaki, Fujita, and Nishijima seem to have drawn form Dogen's writings. It seems that the case is that there is an object of concentration, it's just that it is not as narrow as the breath or cerebral like counting.

Hi, Al. Here's another explanation by Steve Hagen (a particularly clear writer in my opinion).
"In shikantaza . . . The mind settles, but not on a particular point. In Shikantaza, Awareness is objectless and subjectless--there's no "you" who does shikantaza. It's as if concentration has been filed down to a single point--yet, at the same time, has expanded outward and is taking in everything: sights, sounds, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements. And this Awareness is sizeless and timeless. In shikantaza we discover that there is no clear distinction between self and other." from Meditation: Now or Never by Steve Hagen.

I suppose in zazen we are the aware universe sitting in awareness of the universe.

Gassho,
Bill

[Stephanie]

Re: Concentration?????

Here's my take on concentration as part of Buddhist practice, based on my own experiences.

Concentration is a useful tool, but I now question how absolutely necessary it is. Being able to concentrate your mind helps to calm it, helps in the effort to see clearly. If you want to blow a gasket blissing out on the nature of mind, concentration helps.

BUT... you can also find calm, insight, and bliss without developing excessive skill in one-pointed concentration. I found that getting the hang of a technique I (correctly or incorrectly) associate with the practice of shikantaza acted to bypass the struggle to keep dragging my mind back and back to an object of concentration, hoping it would settle down. This technique was "turning the light of attention inward." Instead of trying to keep my mind focused on the breath in the hara, etc., every time my mind came back just enough to get control of it, I would start to turn the attention backwards on itself, on the activity of mind. A few "shots" of this and the mind settled exponentially quicker than when bringing it back to the hara.

There's something about "thinking at thinking" or watching the activity of mind as it unfolds that shuts it down dramatically quickly. It's almost as if the mind is shy, and doesn't want you to catch it doing its crazy stuff :lol:, so when you put it in the "headlights" of your awareness, it gets quiet. Zap! Easy! Why didn't I think of this before? :lol: Also... I'm one of those folks who experiences bliss at times when I sit... and this was also a very quick shortcut to "the good stuff." But the most important thing of all... this technique is much more effective at exposing the nature of reality... mind-constructed reality... you're watching the mind make up what it's experiencing as it goes along... very powerful. I found that... get the hang of this technique, no matter how UN-concentrated you are, just a few gestures of drawing the mind back into this self-awareness gets (uh-oh, I'm about to use a bad word...) RESULTS... :shock:

[Dojin]

Re: Concentration?????

Stephanie, you are so anti establishment!!!!! RESULTS?!?!?!?!
BLASPHEMY!!!!! BURN HER AT THE STAKE!!!!


who said its a bad thing to get results? i just think its not a good idea to practice for results since if you cant get what you want or even if you get what you want you judge it...
i get calmer and can concentrate for longer, thats good...
i cant concentrate and calm down, thats bad...

no judging, just sitting.

p.s.
i am sure we get something from our practice but its not something we need to run after...
to hell with enlightenment lets just take it a moment at a time...

[Jundo]

Re: Concentration?????

Hi,

Sorry to have been away from the party for a few days. This thread is a great chance to address some misconceptions and conceptions.

It would appear Shikatanza because it is not solely concentration based does not improve or work on that aspect of the mind so much as a purely concentration meditation would. There is no denying some level of concentration is obviously needed.

It all depends on the individual I guess. For me, Shikatanza practice is useful, practice and beneficial. I may incorporate concentration exercises more formally but mettha meditation and shikatanza for the moment are just fine.

Well, here is one strange fact about Shikantaza. It is definately NOT the best or most effective meditation technique to develop "concentration", and especially "one pointed" or intense concentration ... and that is its great POWER! Let me explain.

The perfection of Shikantaza is embracing its seeming imperfection. It is the same for all of life. Learning to experience this seemingly imperfect and dissatisfying world as perfectly what it is ... that's attaining a perfect state. Learning to "be one" with this perfectly imperfect act of Shikantaza is attaining perfect and complete Enlightenment. Sounds strange, huh?

Trying to attain some special state of "concentration" or any other heightened state is not Shikantaza. Shikantaza is attaining the Way of Non-Attaining. But, you see, the trick is that "Attaining the Way of Non-Attaining" is having attained a --very-- special and "heightened" state. :shock:

Sure, there are monks in Nepal who can run circles around us in their ability to focus on and recall every dot of color in an intricate Mandala of 10,000 Buddhas. There are Rinzai monks who can focus on a word from a Koan until nothing else exists in the whole universe, until blood flows from their ears, all attention and concentration wrapped up in that.

Well, we get to the same place by a different road ... realizing the universe by non-seeking, becoming "One with the Universe" (not by finding the universe in a single point) but by dropping all divisions, judgements, categories until the hard border between our "self" and the rest of reality softens or fully fades away.

To do that, one cannot say that Shikantaza needs any improving or supplementing whatsoever, not in any way (although I do believe that adding some Metta Practice is a good thing ... if not during Shikantaza). It is a perfectly imperfectly perfect doing of non-doing right in this moment, and it is the whole universe non-doing it!

Now, that being said, when you talk about balance in bodymind, dropping "likes" and "dislikes" and other judgments and categories, not following the thoughts, present in this world while seeing through this world, observing "everything and nothing in particular", and dropping all goals ... well, you are pretty much doing Shikantaza "right" even if it is not the "best" meditation to build concentration. I would say the ability to "just sit still" for 40 minutes, and to still the chaotic mind, is concentration enough.

Hi, Alan

I think a concentration meditation can give you a calm mind. That's good.

But, I think that's not the essence of Zen.

In Zen, we learn to drop the self, and if the self has been dropped away, who will do the concentration, who will feel calm or not-calm...

But, i don't mean that concentration meditation is wrong, but in my opinion, it's not the way of Shikantaza.

If there is one dualistic thinking arise (about good or bad, right or wrong), then it can make us confuse.

Just Sit and let every thing come or go without being attached, I think that's the way of shikantaza.

Shui Di, I think you said what I said so nicely ... and with fewer words!

To clarify, I think what I was trying to suggest was that it requires concentration to stay in that small, point-like place where our mental activities balance and therefore drop away ...

...I am suggesting that maintaining awareness requires a mental skill best called concentration. "Attention" might be a substitute, but I think both words imply a cognitive focus on an object, thereby sacrificing awareness of all things that aren't the object. So maybe attention in shikantaza becomes field-like instead of point-like.

...

Here's another explanation by Steve Hagen (a particularly clear writer in my opinion).
"In shikantaza . . . The mind settles, but not on a particular point. In Shikantaza, Awareness is objectless and subjectless--there's no "you" who does shikantaza. It's as if concentration has been filed down to a single point--yet, at the same time, has expanded outward and is taking in everything: sights, sounds, feelings, sensations, thoughts, movements. And this Awareness is sizeless and timeless. In shikantaza we discover that there is no clear distinction between self and other."

Yes, we develop our "concentration" in Zazen by --not-- trying to force it (although you will find some Rinzai influenced teachers of Shikantaza, mostly in the Harada-Yasutani-Maezumi Lineage who tell you to "just sit to the sweat pours from your brow" or such). The way to attain the balance of riding a bicycle or walking a tightrope is --not-- but tightening up and struggling to stay balanced ... it is by being easy, relaxing, not "trying", allowing the natural balance to manifest. Anyway, that is what I do in riding my Zafu.

And, yes, instead of focusing on one point, like a dot or Mantra or Koan, we focus on everything and nothing ... and find the whole of reality that way. Where is the universe not located?

With regards to Shikantaza, I do get confused. Shikantaza's definition seems to vary depending on who you talk to or who you read.
Some say it is awareness of everything and nothing and that it doesn't have a particular object of focus. This doesn't make sense to me.

If Shikantazatranslates as "just sitting", wouldn't it make sense that the focus is on the wholistic body posture of sitting? This seems to be what Uchiyama, Sawaki, Fujita, and Nishijima seem to have drawn form Dogen's writings. It seems that the case is that there is an object of concentration, it's just that it is not as narrow as the breath or cerebral like counting.

In "King of Samadhis" it says," Sit in kekkafuza with the body, sit in kekkafuza with the mind, sit in kekkafuza with the whole body/mind."

This seems to suggest that Shikantaza really is a concentration on the actual act of sitting full lotus.

Well, yes and no. We sit in the Lotus Posture as a perfect act. It is the one and only act in that moment, and our sitting in the Lotus Posture is the whole universe, all the Buddhas and Ancestors, sitting in the Lotus Posture right there. There is nothing else to be doing in the moment, no other place to be or where you can be. Nothing more in need of achievement. We drop all thoughts of categories and judgments, just non-doing that perfect act. Merely straightening the spine and crossing the legs is attaining Buddhahood, and we then forget about that and about anything else that needs to be done. We have arrived, the train has reached the station (by realizing it was present all along). Thus, mind-body drops away.

It is not so much a matter of "concentrating" on the Lotus Posture as a mental object, like staring at the eye of a needle trying to thread it or a dartboard to throw a dart. It is that we forget about the "Lotus Posture" and everything else in just perfectly non-doing that one thing. Thereby, all barriers fall.

Pardon all the words. I just can't say things directly and simply (like Shui Di!)

By the way ...

BUT... you can also find calm, insight, and bliss without developing excessive skill in one-pointed concentration.
... I'm one of those folks who experiences bliss at times when I sit... and this was also a very quick shortcut to "the good stuff."

Steph, I know you know this ... but it is not about attaining "bliss". There is no "good stuff". Dropping all need for "bliss" and ideas of the "good stuff'" is the "Good Stuff" (which is sometimes blissful and sometimes not, but is a "bliss" even when it is not). Sounds strange, huh?

Gassho, Jundo

[Stephanie]

Re: Concentration?????

It's not "about" bliss, but there's nothing wrong with bliss either! It's funny, over and over again, I find Zen folks have this almost allergic reaction to the word "bliss." Japanese teachers don't mention it that much, and American / Western Zen teachers seem almost afraid of it. Is it that Puritan ethic that anything that feels good has to be evil or problematic? It's okay to feel good--really!

[Dojin]

Re: Concentration?????

Steph, i think it is the attachment to bliss that is unwanted.
if we think about bliss to much, or practice for the attainment of bliss it is not the point.
the thing is that bliss has nothing to do with our practice. it is just bliss nothing more or less and it is not constant.

it is great to actually feel good, but it if we keep running towards the good and trying to escape the bad we just miss the whole point.

than again, i might be wrong....

Gassho.