Monk Precepts

[BadChemEng]

I visited my first meditation center today and I left a little confused. I guess first on the positive side I felt a lot of joy sitting across from the monk and just being in everyone's presence. That being said, I was confused about something he said regarding the fact that monks are not even allowed to touch women. I'm not 100% sure what school of buddhism was represented at the center, but for some reason this seemed to contradict with some of what I have learned here. I guess it felt too religion-ey if that's a thing? I don't know, just felt like sharing my confusion.

Brad
Sattoday

[Shinshi]

Hi Brad,

As I understand it, this is one of the reasons we we use the term Priest in Zen rather than Monk. Zen has married clergy. I believe the norm is that Buddhist Monks and Nuns take a vow of celibacy in other kinds of Buddhism.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Amelia]

I think it is safe to say that in our group, celibacy is a personal choice. Neither celibacy or sexual activity is considered more austere way than the other. Both can hold the same positions of authority.

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Shoka]

Brad,

My understanding is that vows and their interpretation can very greatly by traditions, and even just between different groups within the same tradition.

If you are interested you can look up the vinaya rules for monks, which is a list of 227 (the number can vary by tradition as well). This list has some very strict rules for the interaction between men and women. It also contains many rules about eating food, some basically say "don't play with our food when eating." This list of rules also varies for men and women depending on the tradition. There are many groups who undertake all or most of this list when they ordain or when they live as monks. In other traditions this list is not used at all.

If you have seen the Jukai ceremony here or studied the precepts during Ango, then you will be familiar with the 16 Bodhisattva Vows. These are pretty standard for many traditions, but if you look at the Treeleaf list it is worded differently than say the 16 Vows that are written by Thich Nhat Hanh. or other zen groups.

Aside from the wording the interpretation can change as well. There are traditions where the monks will filter their water because they don't want to kill any bacteria which is living in the water. They will also wear special sandals to keep them from stepping on too many bugs. These examples are just meant to exemplify the fact that there are many variations.

Lastly, cultural and history play a role. During the Meiji Restoration in Japan, the government actually issued the Nikujiku Saitai Law which said monks should eat meat and get married. At the time it was a move to weaken Buddhism and help unit the country behind one main religion Shintoism.

This is all to just say, don't be surprised when you visit different groups that there are different rules or interpretations of the vows. I'm not sure if that answer is helpful at all.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[Mp]

Hello Brad,

Yes there are different vows for different schools of Buddhism. Zen usually uses the 16 Bodhisattva Precepts, whereas the Tibetan (Mulasarvastivada) follow 253 vows for the men (bhikkhu) and 364 for women (bhikkhuni). Theravada monks (men) follow 227 vows, where the women follow 311. The Dharmagupta (followed in Taiwan, Hong Kong and other parts of the People’s Republic of China, Korea, and Vietnam, with bhikshus) follow 254 vows for the men and 348 for the women. Culture, and scriptureplay a big role in this as well.

But deep down the primary meaning behind them all is the same ... the more advanced if you will of the vows is to totally remove any possibility of breaking the vows, but again this is not always the case.

There is a lot of information out there, but hopefully this helps somewhat. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Brad,

Yes, most Japanese Buddhist Priests (not only Zen, but all sects of Buddhism in Japan) marry now. It is like what happened in the Catholic Church, when Protestant clergy began to marry. Most Buddhist priests and monks in Asia (including Chan/Zen monks in China and Korea) do not marry.

Some people think about Japanese priests marrying as a bad thing, and a violation of Buddhist traditions. Many South Asian Buddhists are critical of this. Some (I am one) say it is a good thing, because it brings Buddhism into the world.

When Japanese priests are living in a monastery to train, usually for a year or two, they should be celibate during that time. So, then I would call them monks. However, after, most live in the temple with their wife and family.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Rendulic]

I love all of the answers here. I have always felt that the vows are highly individual. I once heard it explained as they should be followed to the extent practical, in a given social and historical context. Just like in Christianity or Islam, when you talk with theologians they can define thousands of differences between sects. But, the practitioners usually are less aware of the differences and go on with there more direct experience of their truths, without building up notions.

Gassho, Rendulic
Sat Today