no-self

[Michael Joseph]

Hey Cheyenne,

Most people see the self as something that we possess or own: myself. Through practice and on the advice of many teachers (including teachers who are not "teachers"), I gone in search of this self, and I can't find a self that belongs to me, that I own. The circumstances of my birth do not belong to me--including my DNA coding. The location of my birth and my parents' choices in rearing me do not belong to me. Even the choices I've made--thoughtful and well-intentioned as I've tried to make them--are at least partly determined by conditions that do not belong to me. In the end, I simply can't find one thing about myself that I can call uniquely and separately my own--yet here I am: marvelous activity. Who knows anything other than this?

Welcome and gassho,

Michael

Sattoday

[RichardH]

Just two more cents. The teaching of anatta is a skillful means (upaya). It is an antidote to view-attachment, in this case attachment to the view of a Self. It is not meant to replace that with an attachment to the view of no-self. So if there is no attachment to either.... well Jundo’s quote from Master Ma says it so beautifully.

Gassho
RichardH

sat today/LAH
Please take anything I say here with a grain of salt.

[Jakuden]

This thread reminds me of the koan about the student who approached Bodhidarma and asked him to how to put his mind at ease, whereupon Bodhidharma told him "Bring me your mind and I will put it to rest." I look for my mind all the time but darned if I can find it

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[ChrisMa]

This thread reminds me of the koan about the student who approached Bodhidarma and asked him to how to put his mind at ease, whereupon Bodhidharma told him "Bring me your mind and I will put it to rest." I look for my mind all the time but darned if I can find it

Excellent Koan!

Wherever we look, the self cannot be found.

Everything we observe is just one of the six sense doors, the contents always shifting. There is nothing stable that we can call "me".

We can look as hard as we want, at everything that's happening, there will never be any self to find in there.

Or we can just sit quietly and watch things come and go. Sometimes there are habitual thoughts that make up a sense of "I". Sometimes the self drops away. Everything is still happening, the sounds, body sensations, even some thought at times. But everything just is where it is. No central controller, no grasping, no adding or taking away. We could say there is awareness reaching out through everything, but no small "self" trying to make it be one way or another. We could say that the real self is this awareness. But the awareness itself sharpens and dulls, moves this way and that, expands and contracts. And this happens on its own, like everything really does.

The periods when the "I" is predominant are filled with self-referential, biographical thoughts. We're constantly retelling ourselves versions of our life stories in our minds. But even in those moments, these things are happening on their own.

Chaotic mind and clear, open mind. We move constantly from one mind to another. Nothing is constant. And we don't really control it. Try to clear the mind, and we get tangled up in the trying. Let things be, and watch it all unfolding, and the clouds part. Sometimes days or weeks of clear skies, sometimes prolonged thunderstorms. Nothing to do but observe it. The observer and the observed are one. There is nothing outside of experience. Experience is full and perfect, irrespective of how it might seem.

There is truly no place to find the self.

Maybe its good to look harder sometimes, just to really drive the point home that wherever we look, there really is no self. It just seems that way because of conditioning.

Then again, we probably don't need to do that.

Sometimes in Zazen, when things are quiet, we can see the self "selfing", as an old teacher put it. But really its just an old habit, which happens on its own. As we watch it, it loses its hold. There's been interesting talk of absolute and relative self. I don't mean exactly the same thing here, but more and more it seems like the self is there and equally not there, at the same moment.

I remember on retreat a few years ago, the instructor made the point that our sense of self isn't fixed. It's always changing just like everything else. Often, when we're really enjoying something, we really do "lose ourselves" in the activity. There is no feeling of self left, just the action itself.

When this happens, we don't try to have a "no-self experience" or anything like that.

It just happens as we give ourselves fully to what we do.


Anyway, I've rambled too much. Thanks for reading and for the great posts so far!

Gassho,

Chris,

Sat Today

[arnold]

Very nice description of Zazen and the process of "selfing" Chris.

Gassho,
Arnold
sat today/LAH

[Jundo]

... I don't mean exactly the same thing here, but more and more it seems like the self is there and equally not there, at the same moment.

Your words resonate with me too.

I would merely add that the Zen Masters also pointed to our deep identity with the world, which constantly flows in and out and as us, which is us. Some call this "emptiness," but it is a flowing unity which may also be seen as "Wholeness." This takes us from this place and moment to everything and every place (and whatever is beyond that too. I wonder if Stephen Hawking is there today or always was just "there"). Some Theravadan Teachings seem to be more about "extinguishing" the self, but the Zen folks were more about finding one's True Self.

I sometimes say that we don't think of our True Self as a "thing" so much as a great dance. Here is my best attempt to express my sense of this ...

Buddha-Basics (Part XVII) — The Dance of Emptiness

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7723-Buddha-Basics-%28Part-XVII%29-%C2%97-The-Dance-of-Emptiness

It is also important to underline for some people that these teachings of "no self" do not really destroy our sense of ordinary self (at least for Zen folks). Some people have a fragile sense of "self" or "self worth," and they can actually find such teachings destabilizing psychologically, as if they are worried about losing themself into some empty void. It is not like that at all. It is more about finding one's True Self which is a deep interconnection and interidentity, then getting back to this ordinary life of me and you and the cat and water to fetch, wood to chop.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Geika]

I would merely add that the Zen Masters also pointed to our deep identity with the world, which constantly flows in and out and as us, which is us. Some call this "emptiness," but it is a flowing unity which may also be seen as "Wholeness." This takes us from this place and moment to everything and every place (and whatever is beyond that too. I wonder if Stephen Hawking is there today or always was just "there").

Hmm... thank you Jundo.

Gassho, sat today, lah

[arnold]

[QUOTE=Jundo;220651]Your words resonate with me too.

I would merely add that the Zen Masters also pointed to our deep identity with the world, which constantly flows in and out and as us, which is us. Some call this "emptiness," but it is a flowing unity which may also be seen as "Wholeness." This takes us from this place and moment to everything and every place (and whatever is beyond that too.

[QUOTE=Jundo;220651]

Really clear here Jundo. I think Dogen's wonderful lines from Genjo Koan: "To carry the self forward and illuminate the myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and illuminate the self is enlightenment” are really apt here.

Gassho,
Arnold
Sat today.LAH

[Getchi]

Sometimes,

I think;

This Body -

has a mind of it's own.




Gassho,
Geoff.


SatToday,
LaH.

[ChrisMa]

I would merely add that the Zen Masters also pointed to our deep identity with the world, which constantly flows in and out and as us, which is us. Some call this "emptiness," but it is a flowing unity which may also be seen as "Wholeness." This takes us from this place and moment to everything and every place (and whatever is beyond that too. I wonder if Stephen Hawking is there today or always was just "there"). Some Theravadan Teachings seem to be more about "extinguishing" the self, but the Zen folks were more about finding one's True Self.

I've definitely found that an emphasis on "Wholeness" is very healthy.

Dogen said something about Zazen unifying all times, past and future, into the moment of sitting. I can't locate the quote right now. That's a big claim, when we take it at face value. But I think he really meant that when we fully open ourselves to what's here right now, this state of inclusiveness has no limits, and nothing needs to be done, added or taken away.

I don't know. It's difficult to be sure what was meant in these old texts, but if it causes us to look at our own experience, I guess we're reading in right.

When we sit and the barrier between inside and outside falls away. There are still the same processes going on inside, but the noise coming from next door, or the rain hitting against the window, doesn't seem too different to the small vibrations of a tense back muscle or a memory that appears and vanishes. There's no need to try to extinguish the self or personality. And there's no need to expand the self to cosmic proportions. The self opens out of its own accord when we allow it to.

At other times, often during the same sit, the self is constricted, the mind jumping round, looking for something.

I find it interesting to watch the way the sense of self isn't fixed. It moves constantly, the field of awareness growing and shrinking of its own accord.

Ultimately, everything is interconnected. There's no dichotomy between small "s" and "S" self. Our only self is completely enmeshed in the vast causal web of reality. The extent to which we can see this is constantly varying, moment to moment. This movement is beyond our control (but the self usually expands when we just observe it and allow things to do their thing.) In this way, everything is no-self, including the forever-shifting boundaries of our sense of self.

It seems to me that the no-self/true-self debate across traditions has caused many people to get lost in terminology. If we eliminate the grasping, small self, we don't cease to exist. We're still here, experiencing the vast flow of phenomena at each moment. But the centre-point has diminished, it's more diffuse. If we awaken to our "true self", again, the contraction around a centre-point goes down, and we open up to the wider field of experience. Different traditions have different ways of describing things. But all of these traditions are build around watching experience closely, from moment to moment. Their maps refer to the same territory. No-self is True-self. I'm sure of this, there is no difference.

I would, however, add that the emphasis on a vast, expansive self strikes me as much more wholesome and beneficial.

I can't speak for anybody else, but the Theravada path can contain challenging periods. And in some ways the emphasis leans more towards letting go of stuff, breaking experience down to the three characteristics, seeing that everything is unsatisfying, impermanent, doesn't make up a self, etc, really exacerbates the heavier realisations. This systematic approach, with its maps and checklists, might be ideal for some. I'm certain that it is. But the more open approach taken by Zen really got me out of the rut and moving gently forward. The practices have much in common, but Zen practice cultivates an openness and equanimity that we really need. This spills over into daily life, as each moment slowly becomes suffused with the awareness of Zazen.

These ideas, of a flowing wholeness, and emptiness dancing, really seem important for me. I've enjoyed reading this thread, many points have struck me.

Hope that wasn't too long or meandering or vague. I find myself returning to these kinds of questions on a regular basis. It's nice to sketch out some thoughts.

Gassho,

Sat Today,

Chris

[Jundo]

Rings my bell, Chris.

[Michael Joseph]

There are letters, but they only speak in words.
There are words, but they only speak in phrases...

Gassho,
Michael
ST