Cosmic mudra issues

[Sean]

Hi all

Lately I've been having some issues with the cosmic mudra. I become acutely aware of my thumbs touching and it feels unsettling, in a nails down a chalkboard kind of a way . I keep adjusting the pressure but nothing feels comfortable. I try to just let it be but the feeling is just too off-putting. I'm finding I'm giving up and opting for more of a Rinzai hand position. The funny thing is I never had this issue when I started doing zazen. If anything it felt quite comfortable then. I'm hoping it will pass. Has anyone else had this issue? Does it matter if I don't do the cosmic mudra?

Sat today

Gassho
Sean

[Daiyo]

Have you tried acknowledging you are focusing your attention in the fingers and letting go of it?
Perhaps focusing in the breath again and again until, after some practice, you are able to focus in the "space between thoughts" just ignoring the thumbs.

I'm just a beginner nonetheless. That's my 2 cents.

Gassho,
Daiyo

ST/LaH

[Ryushi]

Does it matter if I don't do the cosmic mudra?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "no". Seems if you are more comfortable with a Rinzai position (I'm not familiar with what that would be), try that. If we don't seem to mandate a single mode of sitting, i.e. full lotus, I can't see why a specific mudra would be mandatory.

[Amelia]

This happens. It will pass. I would advise you to keep trying. Eventually, it will fade away. I used to get the same way about holding my mouth and jaw a certain way. It used to really take over my sitting, but eventually, I forgot about it.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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[Amelia]

I want to add that the cosmic mudra is really useful for showing you your state of mind. When it wanders, the mudra slouches. Too rigid, and it distracts. It has a purpose in this way.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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[Sean]

Thanks all for your perspectives. I think I need to persist a bit longer and see if I can ride this out. For those who don't know this is the Rinzai mudra https://goo.gl/images/qCvgEh feeling a bit of envious of those Rinzai peeps and their comfy hand posture

Gassho

sat today

[aprapti]

Thanks all for your perspectives. I think I need to persist a bit longer and see if I can ride this out. For those who don't know this is the Rinzai mudra https://goo.gl/images/qCvgEh feeling a bit of envious of those Rinzai peeps and their comfy hand posture

Gassho

sat today

hi Sean, what you show is not THE Rinzai mudra. I was in the rinzai tradition for many years and we always sat with the cosmic mudra. If i look at the clothing on the site you gave, i guess its an aikido man and not a zen man, but that i do not know for sure.

i wish you best with your issue,

coos

std (with cosmic mudra )

[Jundo]

Hi Sean,

All good advice here.

May I ask if you are prone to this kind of fixation in other things in life? Sometimes I have found that it is a pattern.

Yes, ideally, I would say that the problem is between your ears (unless you have uniquely sensitive fingers!). When we drop the thought of a disturbance from mind, then there is no disturbance. In Zazen, many things in our body, noises, other people in the room may "disturb" us. This is all part of Zazen, including learning to put the "disturbance" down by releasing the thoughts and feelings of disturbance and "paying them no nevermind." (Uchiyama Roshi said that it is better to "Open the Hand of Thought," not the body's hands )

Why don't you do a bit of all of the above recommendations? Sometimes sit in our Zazen Mudra, but focus on the breath. Then return to "open spacious awareness" not thinking about your fingers or anything in particular. However, if you need, okay to sit sometimes in your "Rinzai" way. Trying a bit of each, but remember that the problem is likely between your ears. (The fingers do have more nerve endings than any other part of the body, one of the reasons that Buddhists and Catholics like their twirling beads so much. I am not ruling out the possibility that you just have super-sensitive hands. Any indication otherwise that you do?) Report back to us after a few days or weeks.

As was mentioned, I believe that most Rinzai folks sit the same Mudra as we do ...



However, I have found some examples of Rinzai priests sitting the way you show too. I am going to ask my Rinzai priest friend about it.



Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

PS - As another side note, there have been people here and there who have given special interpretations of the Mudra related to flow of the "Ki" energy in the body. Personally, I don't buy such stories, and think it is just people convincing themselves of something that does not exist. I have heard someone try to offer some very traditional justification such as "Qi/Energy Flow directions", and focusing energy in the "Hara" (the Qi center down that way). However, it is very rare to hear anything like that from modern Soto Zen teachers these days, especially in the west. However, it is a Mudra (considered a mystical hand gesture in esoteric Buddhism and Hinduism), and some people do tend to emphasize esoteric elements. The general meaning is that the roundness is the completeness, the emptiness of the whole cosmos ... thus the name "Cosmic Mudra."

Here is a fellow who seems such a more detailed explanation of various Mudra who I stumbled across (e.g., certain finger placement helps with "healing," another helps "intuition"). Again, this is not my interpretation at all.

[Jundo]

And Rinzai Priest Meido Moore responds ...

Greetings sir!

Both are considered acceptable in Rinzai practice...for example, if I'm not mistaken, in Omori Roshi's Sanzen Nyumon he mentions both.

I don't know if the different sodo attached to the various Rinzai -ha in Japan favor one or another. But personally in Rinzai circles I've most often seen the one used that you mention:





I can't speak to origins, but FWIW one observes something similar in various portraits of Rinzai Gigen in Japan, e.g.:





...and I've noticed it demonstrated in this photo of the modern Chan master Wei Chuei:





Best,
Meido

[Jakuden]

Wow that’s interesting! Thanks for the lesson!

Funny how weird little body things can take on such a life during Zazen! In Sesshin in a large acoustically resonant meditation hall, sometimes I would get obsessed with trying not to swallow because it was so loud [emoji13]Then of course it would be hopeless, and my mouth would water like crazy until I was able to forget about it. I noticed that if I swallowed, those around me would too, so it seems to be contagious [emoji23]🤤

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jundo]

Wow that’s interesting! Thanks for the lesson!

Funny how weird little body things can take on such a life during Zazen! In Sesshin in a large acoustically resonant meditation hall, sometimes I would get obsessed with trying not to swallow because it was so loud [emoji13]Then of course it would be hopeless, and my mouth would water like crazy until I was able to forget about it. I noticed that if I swallowed, those around me would too, so it seems to be contagious [emoji23]��

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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As I have gotten older, I have developed a loud "tinnitus" (ringing in the ears), which bothered me sometimes in the quiet of the Zendo. I dropped it from mind, end of problem. It still whistles, but it is just all the universe whistling.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

As I have gotten older, I have developed a loud "tinnitus" (ringing in the ears), which bothered me sometimes in the quiet of the Zendo. I dropped it from mind, end of problem. It still whistles, but it is just all the universe whistling.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Diddo here ... I too have the same thing and I found the less attention I give it, the less it is there. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Sean]

Thanks Jundo!

It's funny you asked about fixations in other areas of life. I do and it's only something I've had awareness of relatively recently over the last couple of years. I've been quite good at letting those things go. I hadn't thought of this as one of those fixations but you're absolutely right. It's just manifested in another way.

I'm going to keep working with it. That sounds like some really great advice!

I will report back how I get on!

Thanks all

Gassho
Sean

Sat today

[Tairin]

Funny how weird little body things can take on such a life during Zazen! In Sesshin in a large acoustically resonant meditation hall, sometimes I would get obsessed with trying not to swallow because it was so loud [emoji13]Then of course it would be hopeless, and my mouth would water like crazy until I was able to forget about it. I noticed that if I swallowed, those around me would too, so it seems to be contagious [emoji23]

When I used to sit in a group I had the same problem of excess saliva. Swallowing sounded like the loudest sound in the world. I became very self conscious about it and would try to time my swallows with some other sound in the room like a cough etc. Maybe your neighbour was just grateful you broke the silence so that they could swallow too.

As for the Cosmic Mudra, I very much appreciate the lessons it teaches me. As Geika said, it really shows the state of your sitting. Personally i try to sit with my thumbs just barely touching. I come back to them from time to time to make sure I don’t have them pressed too much or completely apart.


Tairin
Sat today & LAH

[Souchi]

Adding to what Geika wrote: When I sit and hold my hands to low, then my thumbs start pressing against each other. If I hold my hands to high, the thumbs have the tendency to drift apart. So maybe you can also try playing around with that.

Since I do not sit in half/full lotus, I usually wrap something around my waist (e.g. a pullover) to have a firm resting place for my hands.

Gassho,
Stefan/Souchi

SatToday