A question regarding "Centering" and the basic philosophy of Zen

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Don Schneider
    Member
    • Feb 2018
    • 3

    A question regarding "Centering" and the basic philosophy of Zen

    Hi,

    I’m new here and would very much like to ask a question regarding an aspect of a very well known book on Zen that I’m sure most if not all here are familiar with. Appended to Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, by Paul Reps, is “Centering,” 112 admonitions to meditate upon and which can help one in one’s quest for “awakening” or enlightenment. The author speculates that this pre-Zen writing might be a basis for Zen. My question regards #94 which reads as follows:

    “Let attention be at a place where you are seeing some past happening, and even your form, having lost its present characteristics, is transformed.“

    My question is: Do any reading here interpret this as seeing a past event that one once experienced as if one were an outside observer of the past event, i.e., one sees himself as if one is now detached from one’s form then, or rather as one experienced the event at the time, i.e., through one’s eyes without seeing all of one’s own form?

    Secondly, having read over these 112 admonitions many times since first encountering them in Mr. Reps’s book in college many years ago, so many of them strike me as pointing the seeker of truth and enlightenment to the illusory nature of time, space and matter that explores the true nature of the elusive concepts we call a “moment” and an “event.”

    From Zen Flesh, Zen Bones (paraphrased from memory as I don’t have the book at hand), here is a Zen anecdote recounted:

    “Two students were arguing over the nature of a flag blowing in the wind. One argued that the flag was moving while the other the wind. The master happened along and settled the debate with: ‘Mind moves.’”

    Another is:

    “A master and his student were watching a flock of geese. After the geese had left their sight, the master asked the student, ‘Where have the geese gone?’ The student seemingly puzzled responded, ‘They have flown away.’ The master suddenly grabbed and painfully twisted his student’s nose, asking rhetorically, 'How could they have flown away?!’”

    My interpretation of these two similar for purpose anecdotes is that material reality is an illusion and all events are manifestations of the fundamental basis of existence which cannot be further sublated, undifferentiated Consciousness, one without a second: “No-thing.” My favorite analogy is that Consciousness (“Brahman" in the Hindu Advaita Vedanta terminology) is like a Rubik’s cube, constantly changing its face to produce different patterns while all the while retaining its essential integrity as one. The purpose of Zen and enlightenment is therefore to realize the true nature of reality as idealism, to see through the illusion of the dualism of material realism.

    Genesis, 2:17:

    “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." But we did and thus dualism was born and "we saw that we were naked and were sore afraid.” We forgot our true nature and came to identify with our material form which we recognized as mortal.

    Do any here agree with my interpretation or, if not, why, please?

    Thank you all very much.
  • Don Schneider
    Member
    • Feb 2018
    • 3

    #2
    If no one is interested in my philosophical musings in the last part of my post, I’d still be most appreciative if someone could give me their opinion on the passage from “Centering” in the beginning of the post. Thank you again very much.
    Last edited by Don Schneider; 02-14-2018, 07:46 PM.

    Comment

    • Kyonin
      Treeleaf Priest / Engineer
      • Oct 2010
      • 6749

      #3
      Hi Don,

      I have to be very honest. I haven't read that book and I know very little about Rinzai. All I can say about koan practice is that we just sit zazen with what we read (or not), let it all drift away and in time the koan will have a deep meaning for each of us.

      The book now is in my to-read list

      About your question on the Centering text:

      “Let attention be at a place where you are seeing some past happening, and even your form, having lost its present characteristics, is transformed.“
      My take is that past is happening right here and now. There is no past at all, it's just something that lives in our minds because everything that is in the past has carried over to here and now. What you were yesterday is no longer here. You are here and now. By seeing some past happening, it may mean here and now.

      Your attention must be only here. That's all we really got.


      Gassho,

      Kyonin
      Sat/LAH
      Last edited by Kyonin; 02-14-2018, 10:58 PM.
      Hondō Kyōnin
      奔道 協忍

      Comment

      • Jakuden
        Member
        • Jun 2015
        • 6141

        #4
        I think perhaps we are waiting for Jundo to comment on this, because it doesn’t seem like a Shikantaza approach. Zen sometimes includes other forms of practice, like Koan practice or breath counting, but in Shikantaza we would not focus on anything like a past event during Zazen.

        Likewise, the anecdotes you mention I believe are Koans pointing to the essential inter connectivity of mind, wind, flag, geese.... but Koan practice is also not our way, although Koans are cool [emoji41]

        Gassho
        Jakuden
        SatToday/LAH


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

        Comment

        • Jakuden
          Member
          • Jun 2015
          • 6141

          #5
          Originally posted by Kyonin
          Hi Don,

          I have to be very honest. I haven't read that book and I know very little about Rinzai. All I can say about koan practice is that we just sit zazen with what we read (or not), let it all drift away and in time the koan will have a deep meaning for each of us.

          The book now is in my to-read list

          About your question on the Centering text:



          My take is that past is happening right here and now. There is no past at all, it's just something that lives in our minds because everything that is in the past has carried over to here and now. What you were yesterday is no longer here. You are here and now. By seeing some past happening, it may mean here and now.

          Your attention must be only here. That's all we really got.


          Gassho,

          Kyonin
          Sat/LAH
          Yay thank you Kyonin!

          Gassho,
          Jakuden
          SatToday/LAH


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

          Comment

          • aprapti
            Member
            • Jun 2017
            • 889

            #6
            hi Don, since this is a shikantaza-sangha, i will not talk about koans, here. But i will give you the titles of two excellent books about koan-practice: 'two arrows meeting mid air', by John Daido Loori and 'bring me the rhinoceros' by John Tarrant.


            Coos

            std

            hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

            Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

            Comment

            • Don Schneider
              Member
              • Feb 2018
              • 3

              #7
              Originally posted by Kyonin
              Hi Don,

              I have to be very honest. I haven't read that book and I know very little about Rinzai. All I can say about koan practice is that we just sit zazen with what we read (or not), let it all drift away and in time the koan will have a deep meaning for each of us.

              The book now is in my to-read list

              About your question on the Centering text:



              My take is that past is happening right here and now. There is no past at all, it's just something that lives in our minds because everything that is in the past has carried over to here and now. What you were yesterday is no longer here. You are here and now. By seeing some past happening, it may mean here and now.

              Your attention must be only here. That's all we really got.


              Gassho,

              Kyonin
              Sat/LAH
              Thank you. Although you didn’t answer my question per se as to how to practice the meditation, you went deeper, to its meaning. You seem to be saying that its purpose is to realize that only the present exists and although our past is part and parcel of what we are at present, the past is now an illusion. That sounds logical to me. However, Rajneesh, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh wrote a book on these centering practices (and he at least then sounded like a far more serious and sincere man than the later clownish confidence man and cult leader he was painted as when he had his Oregon commune years ago), and he added to your thought that just as we realize that the past is an illusion we come tor realize that so is the present: neither fundamentally exists.
              Last edited by Don Schneider; 02-15-2018, 03:12 PM.

              Comment

              • Jishin
                Member
                • Oct 2012
                • 4821

                #8
                A question regarding "Centering" and the basic philosophy of Zen

                Originally posted by Don Schneider
                If no one is interested in my philosophical musings in the last part of my post, I’d still be most appreciative if someone could give me their opinion on the passage from “Centering” in the beginning of the post. Thank you again very much.
                Hi Don,

                I am interested but don’t know enough about it.

                Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

                Comment

                • Jakuden
                  Member
                  • Jun 2015
                  • 6141

                  #9
                  There is always Dogen’s Uji—Being Time from Shobogenzo.... Written “then,” but timeless and just as relevant “now.” [emoji854]


                  Can someone let me know if the link doesn’t work?

                  Gassho
                  Jakuden
                  SatToday/LAH


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40351

                    #10
                    Hi Don,

                    I often say that Buddhism, including Zen, comes in flavors which are "sometimes very different, yet always somehow the same; Just the same, yet often very different"

                    Zen Flesh, Zen Bones is one of the first books on Zen from back in the 50's, and more oriented toward Rinzai Practice plus a whole kitchen sink of Eastern Practices all tossed together. I looked quickly at the "112 Admonitions," which seem to be based on some Hindu or Tantric recommendations.

                    1. Radiant one, this experience may dawn between two breaths. After breath comes in (down) and just before turning up (out) — the beneficence.
                    2. As breath turns from down to up, and again as breath curves from up to down—through both these turns, realize.
                    3. Or, whenever inbreath and outbreath fuse, at this instant touch the energyless energy-filled center.
                    Our Shikantaza way is much simpler, and very direct. You write:

                    My question regards #94 which reads as follows:

                    “Let attention be at a place where you are seeing some past happening, and even your form, having lost its present characteristics, is transformed.“

                    My question is: Do any reading here interpret this as seeing a past event that one once experienced as if one were an outside observer of the past event, i.e., one sees himself as if one is now detached from one’s form then, or rather as one experienced the event at the time, i.e., through one’s eyes without seeing all of one’s own form?
                    In Shikantaza, one sits in the only "place" one can be in that moment, not engaging thoughts of the past or of a possible future. There is nothing to see past or not see past, no here or beyond, just sit. One sits like a clear mirror which simply reflects all that passes through it without judgments. Don't think about whether one is inside or outside, don't interpret. Don't wonder about form or formless. Don't try to be detached or attached. Just Sit in the clarity and completion of Just Sitting. One might say that we sit at the Centerless Center which is also all insides and all outsides.

                    Have you had a chance to go through our "We're All Always Beginners" video introduction to Shikantaza yet? That may answer some of your questions.

                    Talks and video sittings for people new to Treeleaf Sangha and Shikantaza Zazen. Remember: We are all always beginners!


                    time, space and matter that explores the true nature of the elusive concepts we call a “moment” and an “event.”
                    Yes, we also experience in Soto Zen that time, space and matter are not the only way to experience things. There is something timeless that transcends all differences. Nonetheless, we also experience that we have to get to the bank by 3:00 because they are going to close (truly my schedule today), and that also is true. We are very simple people. There is no time, and nothing in the universe lacking or due ... yet I must get to the bank and pay the rent which is due. True "non-dualism" is not to get caught in either the dual nor the ideal.

                    ... cannot be further sublated, undifferentiated Consciousness, one without a second: “No-thing.” My favorite analogy is that Consciousness (“Brahman" in the Hindu Advaita Vedanta terminology) is like a Rubik’s cube, constantly changing its face to produce different patterns while all the while retaining its essential integrity as one. The purpose of Zen and enlightenment is therefore to realize the true nature of reality as idealism, to see through the illusion of the dualism of material realism.
                    We drop all those fancy, 50-cent words away. Just Sit. Be simple and stupid, it is okay sometimes. Sometimes some kinds of simple and stupid are very Wise. It is all right here, but sometimes one must think about it less, and try less, to realize more.

                    Gassho, Jundo

                    SatTodayLAH
                    Last edited by Jundo; 02-15-2018, 03:16 AM.
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    Working...