The Identity of Relative and Absolute

[Enjaku]

Walking forward in the way
You draw no nearer, progress no farther.
One who fails to see this truth
Is mountains and rivers away.

Whenever I hear this section from the Identity of Relative and Absolute (Sandokai), I wander if I'm mountains and rivers away from understanding it...

I would like to have a better understanding of this verse so I had a search through old posts but couldn't find any definitive description or analysis of Sandokai...

Would anyone care to point me in the right direction?

Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat LAH

[pthwaites]

Hi Enjaku,

Sandokai is the subject of chapter 7 of Shohaku Okamura's book Living by Vow, which we're studying in the reading group at they moment. We're on chapter 6 now so we've not got to it yet, but so far everything had been very insightful so I'd expect that chapter to be no different.

Gassho

Sat today

Peter

Sent from my SM-G935L using Tapatalk

[Eva]

Hello Enjaku,
Thank you for this lovely verse .

This is how I see it
Consider the Way not as a linear path from A to B, where one could be either at the beginning, in the middle or nearing the end of it ; but rather a sphere. When one is on the point on the sphere (a ball, the planet, a bubble) and the sphere itself is The Way, then there is no beginning, middle or end-point. You are always there , the Way close to wherever you are . No matter if you take two steps forward or one step backward or if you decide to waltz on it
Still the Way is always beneath your feet (so to speak) .
Enjoy waltzing and do not try measure the distance, there is no distance to end point, all is always at the nearest point .

I do hope you see the simple meaning behind my scrambled words .

Gassho
eva
isattoday and also LAH

[Jundo]

Walking forward in the way
You draw no nearer, progress no farther.
One who fails to see this truth
Is mountains and rivers away.

Whenever I hear this section from the Identity of Relative and Absolute (Sandokai), I wander if I'm mountains and rivers away from understanding it...

I would like to have a better understanding of this verse so I had a search through old posts but couldn't find any definitive description or analysis of Sandokai...

Would anyone care to point me in the right direction?

Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat LAH

Hmmm. Well, I know I have talked about the Sandokai sometime past. But, since I can't find it either, I will make it the topic of our Monthly Zazenkai Talk this Friday-Saturday. Please tune in. I was going to cover Master Dogen's Hokyoki, but that can wait.

February 2nd-3rd, 2018 - OUR MONTHLY 4-hour ZAZENKAI!

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15968-February-2nd-3rd-2018-OUR-MONTHLY-4-hour-ZAZENKAI%21&p=218256#post218256

Gassho, J

PS - Eva's explanation really is interesting. I happened to be writing something today explaining why some physicists point out that we are always at the "center of the universe" because every point is "a" center. If you consider the universe like a balloon expanding out from the big bang, then every single point (you and me too) is the "center" as much as any other. You never can not be at a centerpoint on the surface of a sphere.

[Getchi]

The Relative and the Absolute,
are "Not Two".
Neither different nor
the same,
where else can we go?



Gassho,
GEoff.

SatToday
LaH

[Seishin]

Hello Enjaku,
Thank you for this lovely verse .

This is how I see it
Consider the Way not as a linear path from A to B, where one could be either at the beginning, in the middle or nearing the end of it ; but rather a sphere. When one is on the point on the sphere (a ball, the planet, a bubble) and the sphere itself is The Way, then there is no beginning, middle or end-point. You are always there , the Way close to wherever you are . No matter if you take two steps forward or one step backward or if you decide to waltz on it
Still the Way is always beneath your feet (so to speak) .
Enjoy waltzing and do not try measure the distance, there is no distance to end point, all is always at the nearest point .

I do hope you see the simple meaning behind my scrambled words .

Gassho
eva
isattoday and also LAH

Thank you Eva I like this "simple" way of looking at this. More interesting in view of what Jundo posted after you and that its the subject of this week's talk.

[Enjaku]

Peter - I have this book! Clearly I need to actually read it...
Thanks for the tip.

Eva, Jundo and everyone else - thanks for your insight and I look forward to hearing more about it at the Zazenkai!

Wonderful!!
Deep bows,
Enjaku
Sat LAH

[Rakurei]

Slightly off topic.

I've noticed a disinterest in the intellectual or philosophical sides of Buddhism and Zen - of course, not including the noble truths etc..

I often wonder if this feeling is really an aversion, or even a laziness on my part.

Does anyone else feel similar at times?

Gassho,

Rakurei

ST

[Kokuu]

Hi Rakurei

When I first started sitting, I went for eight years without touching on any Buddhist philosophy aside from one book on the meditation practices I was doing. It just didn't hold any interest for me. Now I love reading about it and find it helps immensely with my practice but I don't expect the same to be true of everyone.

However, I do think there is a basic understanding most of us should look to develop around the foundation literature and chants of Zen. Some of this will be picked up just by interacting on the forums but others will have to be learned.

Very few of us will have equal levels of excitement around all parts of the path and this may be your low excitement area that you have to push yourself a bit more at. I am not particularly drawn to learn about Zendo etiquette and how many times the bell is struck before a particular sutra but know that it is part of priest training to learn it. Likewise, oryoki practice is something I struggle with finding enthusiasm for.

So, I don't think you are lazy at all but would encourage you to learn about this chant at some point as it is a primary text on the relationship between the relative and absolute that underlies the Soto path.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[MyoHo]

Hi guys,

It's an interesting quote. The absolute is always tempting. Easy to get stuck in if not careful. There is no way and no goal, no you and no self and once we get a glimpse of that it makes us feel wel, Zenny and with a sense of achievement. " Now I'm getting somewhere!" Well, as soon as a thought like that enters our practice we get back to mountains and rivers away from the point of the Way. The quote points to the trap of a sense of achievement in relative terms. The relative however is also true though. If we make sitting a part of life and maintain that " beginners mind" when reading and listening, we are bound to make some progress towards that goalless goal. Sure there is relative progress. If one has been around this place long enough, there is no denying that. Some people here are becoming real inspiration and speaking wise Dharma permeated words. That comes from dedicated practice and study. Don't say there is nothing to achieve because that is being drunk with the absolute. Don't say there is something to achieve because that is being drunk with the relative. In both cases mountains and rivers away. Well, thats what comes to mind with this quote.

Gassho

MyoHo

[Jishin]

Don't say there is nothing to achieve because that is being drunk with the absolute. Don't say there is something to achieve because that is being drunk with the relative. In both cases mountains and rivers away.

What can I say then?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[Jakuden]

What can I say then?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

Everything and Nothing

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Jishin]

[emoji869]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[Michael Joseph]

Walking forward in the way
You draw no nearer, progress no farther.
One who fails to see this truth
Is mountains and rivers away.

Whenever I hear this section from the Identity of Relative and Absolute (Sandokai), I wander if I'm mountains and rivers away from understanding it...

I would like to have a better understanding of this verse so I had a search through old posts but couldn't find any definitive description or analysis of Sandokai...

Would anyone care to point me in the right direction?

Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat LAH

Hello all,

Since I didn't see it posted, I'd recommend Shunryu Suzuki Roshi's Branching Streams Flow in the Darkness, an edited series of talks he gave on the Sandokai. You can find it on Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Branching-Str.../dp/0520232127. Someone has posted a PDF version for free: https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Branching-Streams.pdf. I read it during my break between fall and spring semesters. I would not dare say I understood everything in it, but it helped to clarify my not-knowing.

Gassho,

Michael

Sat today

[Jakuden]

Hello all,

Since I didn't see it posted, I'd recommend Shunryu Suzuki Roshi's Branching Streams Flow in the Darkness, an edited series of talks he gave on the Sandokai. You can find it on Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Branching-Str.../dp/0520232127. Someone has posted a PDF version for free: https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Branching-Streams.pdf. I read it during my break between fall and spring semesters. I would not dare say I understood everything in it, but it helped to clarify my not-knowing.

Gassho,

Michael

Sat today

Thank you!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH