Deshimaru Shikantaza

[Horin]

Hi,
i wonder about the Shikantaza of Taisen Deshimaru: Concentration on the breath and return moment to moment to it, it seems to cut off arising thoughts.
the zazen i practise is the uchiyama style that is quite similar to the one jundo is teaching:
be aware of what happens, thoughts, sensations et cetera, and return to herenow/posture or breath when interacting with thoughts/daydreaming/thinking about stuff..
what do you think of that difference of that shikantaza styles? afaik dogen never taught to concentrate on anything like breath or other anchors to cut off thoughts?

[Zenmei]

Hi,
i wonder about the Shikantaza of Taisen Deshimaru: Concentration on the breath and return moment to moment to it, it seems to cut off arising thoughts.
the zazen i practise is the uchiyama style that is quite similar to the one jundo is teaching:
be aware of what happens, thoughts, sensations et cetera, and return to herenow/posture or breath when interacting with thoughts/daydreaming/thinking about stuff..
what do you think of that difference of that shikantaza styles? afaik dogen never taught to concentrate on anything like breath or other anchors to cut off thoughts?

If I find myself consistently distracted and thinking, I’ll turn to the breath for a minute or two to help settle things down. It’s the mental equivalent of adjusting my posture. I go right back to open awareness when I can.

[emoji120] Zenmei (sat/lah)

[Horin]

thanks for your feedback, zenmei.
sometimes, i have the urge to do same things, but try not to react to these thoughts, see them as empty clouds passing by, though it may be better to do same like you not to fall deeply into daydreaming or dreaming when tired.
gassho

[Jundo]

Hi,
i wonder about the Shikantaza of Taisen Deshimaru: Concentration on the breath and return moment to moment to it, it seems to cut off arising thoughts.
the zazen i practise is the uchiyama style that is quite similar to the one jundo is teaching:
be aware of what happens, thoughts, sensations et cetera, and return to herenow/posture or breath when interacting with thoughts/daydreaming/thinking about stuff..
what do you think of that difference of that shikantaza styles? afaik dogen never taught to concentrate on anything like breath or other anchors to cut off thoughts?

Hi Hishiryo

(Would you mind to put a human face photo, and sign a human first name with your posts? It helps us keep things warmer and more human around here. Thank you.)

I am not sure about Deshimaru Roshi's particular instructions. Do you have an example you can show me? I will say that different chefs cook the soup in their own flavor. Let me just mention what I usually say about the object of attention during Zazen:

Every form of Shikantaza has to place the attention somewhere. There are many small variations in Shikantaza, teacher to teacher. One has to place and focus (and simultaneously not place/focus) the mind somewhere!

So, for example, Uchiyama Roshi was a "bring your attention back to the posture" guy. Nishijima Roshi was a "focus on keeping the spine straight" fellow, and there are others who emphasize focusing on the breath or the Hara (also called the "Tanden", the traditional "center of gravity" of the body, and a center of Qi energy in traditional Chinese medicine) ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian

...

Dogen once advised to place the mind in the left palm. Some merely emphasize the wall or floor one may be facing. All are forms of Shikantaza ... so long as the objectless nature of sitting is maintained even if focused on an object.

In fact, all forms of Shikantaza have an "object of meditation", a place to focus or place the mind to build a degree of concentration and quiet the thoughts (hopefully to soften the border and pass through "object" and "subject"), while dropping all effort to attain and releasing all judgments. At Treeleaf, ... as our central "objectless" object of meditation, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all ... sitting with open, spacious awareness ... sitting with the whole world but without being lost in trains of thought (which I also sometimes describe as having the mind focused on "no place and everyplace at once"). That open stillness is our "object of concentration" (I emphasize such because it makes it clearer that Zazen is not a tool, and makes it easier to take our Practice off the cushion and into the rest of the world, than simply following the breath or focusing on a part of the body).

I sometimes also feel that emphasizing the feelings of posture too much might mislead some people into concluding that Zazen is about attaining some particular physical sensation of balance of body. I think Uchiyama makes it clear that it is really not about that, even though he was a "return to the posture, again and again" fellow.

I want to mention that these days I am emphasizing somewhat more that folks new to Zazen should follow the breath, and stay with that for weeks or months, gradually transitioning into "choiceless, open spacious awareness". In our video series for "Beginners, We are All Always Beginners", I tell people new to Zazen to follow the breath at the tip of the nose, as it enters and exits, but do not say audibly inside your head "inhaling" or "exhaling" or the like, and just be silently aware. Also, have some subtle feeling in heart that "inside" and "outside" are not two, and that the border we create between is rather an arbitrary construct. Just breathe, feeling that "inside is outside, outside just in".

Perhaps, once or twice a sitting, move off into "open spacious awareness" in which the "object of attention" is any one thing or everything in your surroundings, but without giving particular thought or pondering particularly any of it. Here too, maybe have some sense of "inside" and "outside" as not two. Move back to the breath again if difficult to rest there.

Gradually, folks new to Shikantaza should transition to "open spacious awareness," but it is fine to move back to breath on days when the head becomes particularly stormy and filled with runaway thoughts.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Horin]

Hi Hishiryo

(Would you mind to put a human face photo, and sign a human first name with your posts? It helps us keep things warmer and more human around here. Thank you.)

Hello jundo, thank you very much for your reply. Yes, i will do this:-)

I am not sure about Deshimaru Roshi's particular instructions. Do you have an example you can show me? I will say that different chefs cook the soup in their own flavor.

http://www.zen-deshimaru.com/en/zen/how-to-practice-zazen

the description is to let thoughts go, neither grasp nor fight, but concentrate on the deep belly breath. i think its an anchor not to get lost in thought processes. so in one hand its not quite different to uchiyama though uchiyama taught not to return to posture unless you are not getting lost/interacting in/with thoughts. other soto teachers teach to cut off thoughts by methods and call it shikantaza as well.
i think it was in zazenshin, when dogen told not to reach some state like calm mind, no thoughts or anything like that but to sit and let mind do its own thing. so you can sit without being identified with that monkey mind. even if there is no special feeling of emptiness, peace, joy, bliss... that fits with my view of hishiryo. even the concentration on the posture et cetera may appear in that awareness the thoughts come and go too.
the only need is to return to the anchor when get lost in the mind processes.
its really difficult to explain..
another great article from okumura roshi i have found here

http://antaiji.org/archives/eng/okumura-zazen.shtml

it is also quite the same what you told in the zazen instructions. so okumura and your words are pretty clear.

I sometimes also feel that emphasizing the feelings of posture too much might mislead some people into concluding that Zazen is about attaining some particular physical sensation of balance of body. I think Uchiyama makes it clear that it is really not about that, even though he was a "return to the posture, again and again" fellow.

I want to mention that these days I am emphasizing somewhat more that folks new to Zazen should follow the breath, and stay with that for weeks or months, gradually transitioning into "choiceless, open spacious awareness". In our video series for "Beginners, We are All Always Beginners", I tell people new to Zazen to follow the breath at the tip of the nose, as it enters and exits, but do not say audibly inside your head "inhaling" or "exhaling" or the like, and just be silently aware. Also, have some subtle feeling in heart that "inside" and "outside" are not two, and that the border we create between is rather an arbitrary construct. Just breathe, feeling that "inside is outside, outside just in".

Perhaps, once or twice a sitting, move off into "open spacious awareness" in which the "object of attention" is any one thing or everything in your surroundings, but without giving particular thought or pondering particularly any of it. Here too, maybe have some sense of "inside" and "outside" as not two. Move back to the breath again if difficult to rest there.

Gradually, folks new to Shikantaza should transition to "open spacious awareness," but it is fine to move back to breath on days when the head becomes particularly stormy and filled with runaway thoughts.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

thanks for that explanation, i can follow you but the recommandation for new folks seem to be an effort not to get lost in thoughts and stay that way on focussing on the breath init?
so the way is from watching the breath to come more and more to open awareness?

the more i concentrate on my breath or something the more i get tired unconciouss, so it fits for me better not to stay focussed all the time on one thing but to sit and be aware of what comes and goes, even if its full of thoughts, and return when i drift away.
it is just confusing to read so much about different techniques.
thank you all, gassho,
ben

[Souchi]

[Hah, Ben already posted some of the things below while I was writing this post, but here it is anyway ]

I don't have any quotable sources at hand but a quick Google search for "deshimaru zazen" leads to the following pages (among others).

(1) http://www.zen-deshimaru.com/en/zen/how-to-practice-zazen
(2) http://www.meditation-zen.org/en/meditation-consciousness

(The second is the web presence of the temple my local Sangha is associated with.)

Here are my observations (please check this for yourself). Though the quote at the top of (1) clearly states "Without focusing on anything, it is only related to the concentration on the posture, breathing and state of mind.", the text below contains the passage "This state of mind emerges naturally from a deep concentration on the posture and breathing [..]". The whole text seems to be similar to the English version of (2) and its French (link)/German (link) translations. So I assume (!) that all those texts have a common source which might be the chapter "Zazen" from the book "Questions à un Maître Zen" (Taisen Deshimaru, Albin Michel: Spiritualités vivantes, ISBN 2-226-02119-1).

Apart from these speculations, I can only definitely say that in our local Sangha (which is based on the Deshimaru lineage), Shikantaza is tought similar to what Uchiyama and Jundo stated. Especially the expression "open the hand of thought" and a hand-opening-gesture are frequently used to describe your mindset during Shikantaza.

So to sum it up: I don't know what Deshimaru really t(h)ought Maybe (Probably?) that isn't that important, anyway.

Gassho,
Stefan/Souchi

SatToday/lah

[Jundo]

Hi Ben,

Thank you for half a face.

Here, we are not about "cutting off thoughts," but about radically sitting without resistance or judgment to "what is" (including that we might sometimes be sitting feeling resistant! No resistance even to sometimes resisting!). So, what you write resonates with my feeling of Zazen ...

to sit and let mind do its own thing. so you can sit without being identified with that monkey mind. even if there is no special feeling of emptiness, peace, joy, bliss... that fits with my view of hishiryo. even the concentration on the posture et cetera may appear in that awareness the thoughts come and go too.
the only need is to return to the anchor when get lost in the mind processes.

But, at the same time, one does not grab on to thoughts, get tangled in thoughts or stir them up. One "lets the mind do its thing," but does not play its games either! It is tricky.

i can follow you but the recommandation for new folks seem to be an effort not to get lost in thoughts and stay that way on focussing on the breath init?
so the way is from watching the breath to come more and more to open awareness?

Yes, the recommendation is only for new folks who really do not know how to settle at all, and who have runaway minds lost in the mind games (or anyone sometimes on particularly stormy days), tangled in thoughts etc. It is like training wheels for the bicycle. I believe in transition to open awareness, sitting letting the mind do its thing yet not playing its tangled games.

As you say, we are not seeking bliss states (although they may sometimes happen) or to feel "peaceful" ... for we believe that the most profound Peace does not depend on always feeling "peaceful" all the time, but is instead a total allowing of what is (which is not always feeling "peaceful"! )

the more i concentrate on my breath or something the more i get tired unconciouss, so it fits for me better not to stay focussed all the time on one thing but to sit and be aware of what comes and goes, even if its full of thoughts, and return when i drift away.
it is just confusing to read so much about different techniques.

You have to be the ultimate teacher for yourself, and when you find the way of Shikantaza which seems to work best for you ... do that. You will know because it will feel untangled, balanced, right. So, some might benefit from following the breath or returning to the posture more, some not.

You may appreciate this old post ...

Right Zazen and Wrong Zazen

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7573-SPECIAL-REPOST-Right-Zazen-and-Wrong-Zazen

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

PS - On the Deshimaru instructions you posted ...

http://www.zen-deshimaru.com/en/zen/how-to-practice-zazen

It strikes me that, like many Japanese, he is something of a "Lotus Posture" fascist. Many Japanese are very insistent and fetishize it, while in our Sangha (and many western places) we instead emphasize the "balanced stable posture right for your body" ... which can be one of several postures, and it may change with time.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION

His breathing instructions are different from Dogen, who said to simply assume a natural breath, letting long breaths be long and short breaths be short (beyond all thought of "long and short" of course!) ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14885-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2811%29&p=189094#post189094

I don't favor his instructions for doing something artificial with the breath.

I am basically with him on state of mind ...

During zazen, let the images, the thoughts, the mental shapes appearing from the unconscious, pass like clouds in the sky, without fighting them, without grasping them. Like the reflexions in a mirror, the expressions of the unconscious pass, pass again and then vanish.

But then he seems to favor the attaining of some particular concentration state ...

And one gets to the deep unconscious, without thinking, beyond thought (hishiryo), true purity.

Not sure what is meant there. I do not think we are trying to be purely "without thinking", although it happens sometimes. Hishiryo is, in my book, "thinking non thinking", which is something like the Clarity that shines through both thoughts and no thoughts, like the pure blue sky found shining both in the absence of thought clouds but also shining through and illuminating any thought clouds passing through. It is not only trying to be the "pure blue sky" with no clouds.

[Jishin]

Hi,

I have a tendency to focus on posture because of back problems. If not this I focus on breathing from the hara. If not this just here and there and no where in particular, just being kind and gentle with whatever happens. Just my interpretation of “Zazen as Practicing Great Ease and Joy” as Dogen put it.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Let me add what I feel Dogen was also about, but often gets left out of Zazen instructions these days. Perhaps my own "fetish," but I am sticking with it ...

Shikantaza Zazen must be sat, for the time it is sat, with the student profoundly trusting deep in her bones that sitting itself is a complete and sacred act, the one and only action that need be done in the whole universe in that instant of sitting. This truth should not be thought about or voiced in so many words, but must be silently and subtly felt deep down. The student must taste vibrantly that the mere act of sitting Zazen, in that moment, is whole and thoroughly complete, the total fruition of life’s goals, with nothing lacking and nothing to be added to the bare fact of sitting here and now. There must be a sense that the single performance of crossing the legs (or sitting in some other balanced posture) is the realization of all that was ever sought, that there is simply no other place to go in the world nor thing left to do besides sitting in such posture. ... Zazen is the one task and experience that brings meaning and fruition to that time, with nothing else to do. This fulfillment in “Just Sitting” must be felt with a tangible vibrancy and energy, trusting that one is sitting at the very pinnacle of life.


...

Maybe the reason that the message was lost is that many practitioners (and even some teachers) cannot get beyond the belief that “Shikantaza” is just a way to get untangled from thoughts, or to feel some balance, or develop some concentration, or realize some peace and clarity. (It is all those things, but so much more.) Some may take too literally the admonition that “just sitting is all there is” without sufficient understanding of the fact that the body must resonate with energy and an awareness that “JUST SITTING HERE IS ALL THAT EVER COULD BE!”

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shinshou]

I did a concentration type of meditation for years, mostly on the breath. It has been a real difficulty for me to drop that and allow open awareness. I understand that for those very new they may need an anchor to calm their minds, but for me the anchor became an unwanted weight when it came time to let it go.

Dan (Shinsho)
Sat today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Horin]

thank you jundo, that was exactly what i was confused of.. your words are very helpful. i have the same doubts to manipulate the breath, try to reach some state of mind and it was not helpful to read deshimaru and have doubts on my way doing zazen!
tbh i very enjoy this blissful moments of nomind and was chasing them at the beginning often. by and by i realised that it doesnt matter what kind of state there is. uchiyama roshi called it landscape of zazen.
gassho.

[SoR]

It's interesting to see all the variations of the same idea. In the Kwan Um School of Zen, even though it's not based on Dogen's teachings, a form of Shikantaza is also taught, but under the name "Clear Mind Meditation":

"This form of meditation involves just sitting and being aware of what is going on at just this moment. This is moment-to-moment mind. It hears the birds in the trees, the cars going by, the planes overhead, and the children playing outside. To the clear mind there is no such thing as ‘noisy’, it all just ‘is.’ This is not a technique for beginners, but is an out-growth of experience with the previous meditation techniques."



Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

#SatToday

[Jishin]

Here is Shikantaza in action:

https://youtu.be/9ZgrB9_N_-4

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Shinshou]

Here is Shikantaza in action:

https://youtu.be/9ZgrB9_N_-4

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

The man was incredible.

Dan
Sat today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro