Split Thread: Of Teachers, Priests, Lay Teachers

[Meitou]

Something is confusing me and I'd appreciate some clarification about how this works in Zen world. What constitutes a teacher? Does an unsui become an unsui in order to teach? Is it obligatory for an unsui to teach? Can someone be a teacher without being a priest? I don't mean in the sense that we all teach/learn, but seen in a Zen community as someone qualified to teach? I'm just curious about 'lay' roles within Zen.
Gassho
Frankie
Satwithyoualltoday lah

[Jundo]

Something is confusing me and I'd appreciate some clarification about how this works in Zen world. What constitutes a teacher? Does an unsui become an unsui in order to teach? Is it obligatory for an unsui to teach? Can someone be a teacher without being a priest? I don't mean in the sense that we all teach/learn, but seen in a Zen community as someone qualified to teach? I'm just curious about 'lay' roles within Zen.
Gassho
Frankie
Satwithyoualltoday lah

A very good question, Frankie.

In Asia, most Ordained folks would not be Teachers as such. Some work in the fields or the kitchen, some do the accounting around the monastery, or fix the roof. Most Zen and other Buddhist priests in Japan function mostly as Parish Priests, performing funerals and memorial services for parishioners, not strictly as teachers or spiritual counselors of some sort. Not all are meditators, and even among those, not all would be recognized as someone with a teaching role. Not all monks who Ordain receive Dharma Transmission someday, although most do in Japan in order to take over their family's parish temple.

However, here in the west, it became standard that someone would Ordain to eventually receive Dharma Transmission, take over leading a Zen group of some size, and step into the role of teacher and counselor. This became the path for the vast majority of Ordained folks in America and Europe.

In the West, we are seeing the appearance of many lay Teachers too, folks who might receive Dharma Transmission or some for of "Lay Entrustment" but never Ordain. This is pretty much a Western innovation of recent decades, not so common in Asia ... although there are many respected laypersons who act like Teachers in some corners of Buddhism in Asia, such as Vipassana and Tibetan Buddhism. That was not so common in Japanese Zen, although there were exception like DT Suzuki and others. What is the difference between a Priest Teacher and a Lay Teacher? Hard to say, if you ask me, but it basically seems to come down to the ability of the Priest to do things like perform Jukai and Ordain others, and give authorization to Teach to others. San Francisco Zen Center makes a big deal of the distinction.

As I have sometimes pointed out, Nishijima Roshi wanted to step beyond the whole question. I wrote in his Obituary ...

Nishijima advocated a form of ordination that fully steps beyond and drops away divisions of “Priest or Lay, Male or Female”, yet allows us to fully embody and actuate each and all as the situation requires. In our lineage, we are not ashamed of nor try to hide our sexuality and worldly relationships, nor do we feel conflicted that we are “monks” with kids and mortgages. When I am a parent to my children, I am 100% that and fully there for them. When I am a worker at my job, I am that and embody such a role with sincerity and dedication. And when I am asked to step into the role of hosting zazen, offering a dharma talk, practicing and embodying our history and teachings and passing them on to others, I fully carry out and embody 100% the role of “Priest” in that moment. Whatever the moment requires: maintaining a sangha community, bestowing the Precepts, working with others to help sentient beings. The names we call ourselves do not matter. In Nishijima’s way, we do not ask and are unconcerned with whether we are “Priest” or “Lay”, for we are neither that alone, while always thoroughly both; exclusively each in purest and unadulterated form, yet wholly all at once. It is just as, in the West, we have come to step beyond the hard divisions and discriminations between “male” and “female”, recognizing that each of us may embody all manner of qualities to varying degrees as the circumstances present, and that traditional “male” and “female” stereotypes are not so clear-cut as once held. So it is with the divisions of “Priest” and “Lay”.

Gassho, J

SatTOdayLAH

[Jinyo]

Something is confusing me and I'd appreciate some clarification about how this works in Zen world. What constitutes a teacher? Does an unsui become an unsui in order to teach? Is it obligatory for an unsui to teach? Can someone be a teacher without being a priest? I don't mean in the sense that we all teach/learn, but seen in a Zen community as someone qualified to teach? I'm just curious about 'lay' roles within Zen.
Gassho
Frankie
Satwithyoualltoday lah

Hi,

I have been giving a lot of thought to this too Frankie.

Jundo - would it be possible to split this thread and put Frankie's question on the main Community page?

I was researching the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives because there is a temple relatively near to me - so I was curious about their background, etc. The organisation refers to 'Trainee Lay Ministers' as distinct from Priests - and presumably trainee priests? I'm assuming that Trainee Lay Ministers are individuals who - under supervision - host sitting groups and offer lay teaching. There seems to be a clear structure of training for this - which ethically feels correct?

I'm wondering if perhaps there are certain elements of our unsui training that it might be possible for some of us to join in with - with a view to becoming lay ministers if that were possible in the future?

I think at some point in these discussion threads was the suggestion that Tree Leaf should have as many priests as possible - like seeds to be scattered. If we are ever to be accepted (not an issue for me personally - but clearly an issue) I don't feel this would work but maybe there is some middle ground?

Just some thoughts and questions,

Gassho

Willow

ST

[Jundo]

Hi,

As requested, I split off this topic.

I would add, per what Willow wrote, that every Lineage in the west also is quite different on their in-house rules and perspectives on these issues. The San Francisco Zen Center, for example, seems quite set on maintaining a hard border between what constitutes "Priest Teacher" and "Lay Teacher," while some groups do not recognize Lay Teachers at all. As I said, our Sangha is quite unusual (ahead of the curve?) on fuzzing the whole issue.

Order of Buddhist Contemplatives is also quite unique because of the founders mystical visions which make them, in some ways, stricter that the Soto-shu in Japan for their insistence on celibacy among their priests, and also because of their unique blend to combine her mystical visions that are not standard Soto, plus a great emphasis on merging an Anglican-Christian flavor into their liturgy. I am not sure about the details of their Lay Minister program.

Here at Treeleaf, any experienced member can facilitate a sitting group locally in their town or workplace, should they be inclined. The role is limited to organizing sitting, although the experienced person can guide newcomers in very basic points such as the basics of sitting, and answering basic newcomers questions. They can chant together the Heart Sutra and such as well.

Beyond that, we have our priest training program here for folks interested in the lifetime road of learning and nurturing our ways. However, as I said, this priest training in our Sangha recognizes that our "priests" are also moms and dads, working people, engaged citizens etc. But they are people who need to learn and embody our history and traditions to keep the flame burning into coming generations.

I think it would be hard to have anything between those two categories given our Sangha structure.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

PS - Let me also post my standard response when someone new to Treeleaf inquires about Ordination. It rather sums up my own attitude ...

Thank you for writing. I understand your situation and feeling.

However, Ordination in our Sangha takes waiting for several years, and I must first really know the person well. If I know someone well for several years, they feel at home in our community, and I feel at home with them, then after a few years we would consider to start talking about Ordination. Then, Ordination is itself just the first step on many years of training that may or may not result in anything. Being Ordained does not make one a full priest, only a Novice in Training, and that Training will take many years without any guaranty or promise that the person will eventually become a Priest. If you are still here in our community after a few years, we can begin to talk about it.

I am not sure that is what you are looking for.

Gassho, Jundo

[Meitou]

Thank you Jundo and Willow for these responses. Strangely enough Willow, my original question arise while I was researching the OBC too, after reading Kokuu's mention of them in another thread. I was also thinking about David Brazier's Pureland group in the uk, as I know a some of the priests, ordained by David although outside of their own organisation I imagine they would be lay folk.
Interesting to think about because I regard the ability to teach a gift of communication that not everyone has, no matter how much doctrinal knowledge or 'official' ratification they have.
From what I've experienced here, particularly during Rohatsu, our unsui are all very gifted communicators, each with their own flavour. Obviously your ordination process works Jundo, as you're a brilliant teacher yourself, that gets reflected in your priests.
I'd also add that I love that Treeleaf isn't too hierarchical, the last Sangha I was in was rather top heavy with chiefs, inner circles, outer circles, etc
Gassho
Frankie
Satwithyoualltoday /lah

[Jishin]

Split Thread: Of Teachers, Priests, Lay Teachers

Hi,

It is presumptuous on my part to assume I know anything about the intricacies of training priests here but just in case I have guessed correctly then these are my thoughts:

Jundo is a brilliant teacher and it is a tall order to follow in his steps.

Treeleaf is of tremendous benefit to me and to others.

Minting new priests enhances the chances of increasing the teachings of this sangha and Its main teacher.

The standards should be adjusted to the minimum efficacious amount of training to expedite the process of minting new formal teachers to expand the good to society.

I have no interest in being a teacher but am very interested in the growth of this sangha and the good that it produces.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Meitou]

Hi,

It is presumptuous on my part to assume I know anything about the intricacies of training priests here but just in case I have guessed correctly then these are my thoughts:

Jundo is a brilliant teacher and it is a tall order to follow in his steps.

Treeleaf is of tremendous benefit to me and to others.

Minting new priests enhances the chances of increasing the teachings of this sangha and Its main teacher.

The standards should be adjusted to the minimum efficacious amount of training to expedite the process of minting new formal teachers to expand the good to society.

I have no interest in being a teacher but am very interested in the growth of this sangha and the good that it produces.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Frankie
Satwithyoualltoday lah

[Jinyo]

Thanks for this - and for answering my question directly Jundo.

I just wanted to say I feel you do an amazing job training our unsui - its maybe a personal prevarication
that makes me wish there could be something 'between' - but totally understand that it's not practical and
would no doubt involve unnecessary extra work/organisation.

Thanks for your 2 cents Jishin - always appreciated

... and thanks for bringing the question Frankie.

Gassho

Willow

ST

[Jundo]

Minting new priests enhances the chances of increasing the teachings of this sangha and Its main teacher.

The standards should be adjusted to the minimum efficacious amount of training to expedite the process of minting new formal teachers to expand the good to society.

I will not risk a sacrifice in quality simply for quantity. Thank you, but that decision was made a few years ago. I am all for simplifying some aspects, making this Path more open to working people, parents, folks with age and health issues ... and I am a minimalist on aspects of ritual and ceremony. Still, there is much to learn about our history, doctrines, practices and traditions that even we "minimalists" cannot do without. It takes a few years at least, and I make no promise that someone starting Training as a novice priest will ever get very far. I am not running a Dharma Diploma Mill (there are actually a couple of those around the internet, alas).

People also don't forget that not all my initial picks for priest worked out. They changed, had a change in heart, turned out not to be the people I thought they were, were as eccentric as we Buddhist people can be. I learned. I think I have gotten better, and more selective, in choosing our priests for the last few years. That is why we have the bunch of gems we have now.

That being said, there are several folks around here, old faces, that I hope would consider to Ordain someday.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hi all,

I will put here what I think of this but please keep in mind that I may be totally wrong.

The way I see it, Unsui are just servants of others. Wearing the kesa is like wearing our vow to serve. If there's a chance to educate people through dharma, we do it but we are not teachers. We also sit right besides the sick, we help out in community kitchens, animal shelters or simply listen to people with broken hearts.

Some may think that priest know it all, but I think it's quite the opposite. It is because that we know nothing that we formalize our training and studies. Perhaps one day one becomes a wise priest, but there are no warranties.

As a matter of fact I have met lay people that are walking Buddhism encyclopedias and that may do great job teaching.

At the end, I guess lay people and priests are no different as long as both live for the Precepts and by the Buddhadharma.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[MyoHo]

Getting ordained is not some promotion or elevation in my opinion. It is more like leaving the party to put on an apron and get scrubbing the floor of the great hall. Too many scrubbing priests means there is no party to go to and no priests means no clean hall to sit in. I for one dont see a need for more Special friends of the Sangha. We have a great bunch of people doing specific jobs here ( deep bows to our Unsui. Thanks guys) so it all runs smoothly. Why the need for ordination? What will it add to practice and life?

Gassho

MyoHo

[Mp]

Unsui are just servants of others. Wearing the kesa is like wearing our vow to serve.

Yes, yes, yes!

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Unsui are just servants of others. Wearing the kesa is like wearing our vow to serve.

[Ryudo]

Plese allow me to first express my gratitude for Jundo and our Unsui who do an extraordinary good job.
Also please know that all your kind teachings, efforts and support are much appreciated.
Thank you and deep bows.
But please also allow me at this point to thank all other lay Treeleafers who often make comments and posts from witch I learn more than they probably realise, so I consider them teachers equally.
This (our forum) very often is a great place to be to learn and to teach (intentially or not).
I would like to dedicate my last post of this year in profound gratitude to you all.


Marcus
SatToday/LAH