Vipassana v. Zazen

[John]

Re: Vipassana v. Zazen

If zazen is about 'shining the light of awareness' on our thoughts, and not supressing them, they should dissipate and weaken over time - but I don't see how you can fail to notice what kinds of thoughts they are if you are really alert?

Gassho,
John

[AlanLa]

Re: Vipassana v. Zazen

Sometimes you need to know you are holding on to something so you can drop it, and labeling thoughts is a simple means of becoming aware that you are holding onto thoughts. The training wheels analogy is a good one. Also, the vipissana folks emhasize that lableing be done lightly, which takes practice. Speaking for myself, after a while it becomes second nature. I still do it, almost automatically (lightly), as I go through the day.

[Jundo]

Re: Vipassana v. Zazen

Hi,

I also think that labeling thoughts is a great and necessary aspect of our Practice ... noting their presence, their first arising and fading away, the causes and conditions, how they color our world and create the mood, create reality itself or (better said) the reality of our experience.

But I am going to be a purist on this and say, "Just not during Just Sitting" Shikantaza, when we "just sit", neither stirring up thoughts, nor running after them, nor focusing on them or labeling them, merely observing and open to everything and nothing in particular, merely allowing thoughts to drift in and out like clouds, neither encouraging nor rejecting the thought clouds, while finding again and again and again the open blue sky in between the clouds.

Perhaps, as was suggested, thought labeling and such might be a good bit of training wheels for a beginner for a few weeks or even months (like counting the breath). Helps the person get settled, teaches them a good bit about how thoughts create our lives, how we are slaves to our thoughts and emotions. But soon, those training wheels must come off.

However, otherwise, we should label and observe the thoughts whenever the opportunity arises during our day. Case in point, if one is in the super market line, someone cuts in ahead in the line, if anger or territoriality wells up in you ... great chance to observe the process of those thoughts and emotions arising, and to practice some "standing Zazen" or breathing to allow the emotions to calm too. I fully support that!

On a side note, we recently had some discussion in which I described, in a nutshell, how to do Shikantaza "RIGHT" (even though it is beyond right or wrong). I take the liberty of reposting it here, because some of the new folks have asked me this week about such things ...

Gassho, Jundo

Allowing things to just be the way they are, no judging, not resisting, being with the flow, allowing 'happy' days to be happy and 'sad' days to be sad, all while dropping all idea of 'happy' and 'sad', whether really enjoying or really not enjoying ... fully dropping away any and all thought of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING IT RIGHT. And when you are doing it right, it will usually feel like you are doing it right, for there is no resistance, and a great sense of balance.

Fighting things, wishing things were some other way that how they are, judging, resisting, going against the grain and the flow, wishing 'sad' days were happy or 'happy' days were happier ... filled with a sense of self bumping up against all the other 'selfs', with a mind held by thoughts of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING ZAZEN WRONG. And when you are doing it wrong, it will usually feel like you are doing it wrong, for there is resistance, and a sense of imbalance.

But as well, even at those times when Zazen feels 'wrong', when there is resistance or imbalance ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is. IT CANNOT BE WRONG. This last point is vital to understanding.

Yes, that is a Koan. Is it clear? Please really really penetrate in your body and mind what I just wrote.

Gassho, Jundo

[AlanLa]

Re: Vipassana v. Zazen

I am 100% with you on this, Jundo. The reason I gave up vipissana was that it made my mind too busy, especially while sitting, thus seeming to defeat the purpose of sitting. I learned some great and wonderful things about myself while practicing this technique that I am very grateful for, but the greater vehicle is what we do here, at least for me, at least right now, which is really all I (we) have. In terms of practice, it helped me to more clearly see how things/thoughts/objects, etc. rise and fade all the time, thus making it easier to let them go (insert heart sutra in here somewhere). When I said I still do it automatically now I meant that I note that rising and fading of life-stuff with labels.

AL