The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

But I have to do the Macarena.

G,W

[CinnamonGal]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi Steph,

Thanks for your post. I certainly understand your concerns and I often end up asking why I am not doing more, not getting engaged more...

The two Buddhists that I can think of as being compassionate and engaged are the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh. If they can be compassionate and engaged humans and Buddhists, why can't we?

Maybe if we start with exercising metta towards ourselves for starters it will be easier for us to feel more engaged in what is going around? I think we can be cold or disengaged because we think things happen to others, because we humans believe we are isolated and separated from each other and the rest of the universe.

Our simple practice of zazen brings me closer to anyone else and compassion arises of it without me having to think of it. (I think Uchiyama writes about it in his book and would agree that without compassion ours is not a true practice). This is why I don't think that responding or taking action would be something of a duty, rather it would be a normal thing to do as it is a normal thing for a mother to protect her child. This interconnectedness of all things is there every moment but is easy to forget. Yet I am reminded of it every time I do not act in a skilfull way and get an "aftertaste": I feel bad because I treat someone in a bad way but actually it was myself I hurt.

Maybe it is a little off the subject track but I guess what I came up with is that we seriously believe we are separate from what is around awhicn in itself is the cause of suffering and makes us belief we can have a luxury of not taking action or responding when we can.

Gassho,

Irina

One of the few truths I have discovered is that our capacity to imagine a better world and to work to bring it about, whatever it is, wherever it comes from, and whyever it exists, if there is any reason at all, is sacred; true awakening is not passive or self-indulgent, but is manifested as the recognition of a call to action. This is even modelled for us in the story of the Buddha's awakening: his first impulse was simply to enjoy his inner freedom, but then the Gods asked him to teach, to live a life of action for the benefit of sentient beings, and Indra and Brahma helped him realize his duty to the rest of the world as an awakened being. And I think that anyone who in their heart knows that something is wrong, whether or not they are perfectly enlightened, has a duty to respond to that knowledge. That is the Mahayana in action.

[CinnamonGal]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Stepahnie,

You wrote in response to Will's comment:

.. Yes, I believe that certain social phenomena are "wrong," but I don't believe the right approach is to violently try to force people to change, nor do I have a grand idea of exactly how people should behave and go about their daily lives (I'll leave that to Dogen). I strongly believe in the value of dialogue and debate, and in the simple power of presenting a different point of view, a different vision of how things can be, which people can then take or leave...

Although I do apperciate the opportunity to discuss and debate things I don't believe we can come to any huge changes in the world through discussions. :shock: Just to a couple of examples here. How would you reason/debate with someone who says "It is not my fault that I am born in a developed country, why would I too suffer because many people suffer someplace else?".

Debates or discussions by themselves do not make people more compassionate . Besides, we all can have different ideas as to what a perfect world should be like. Rawls's Veil of Ignorance proposal is one way to reason as to what kind of society is good/just to live in but then people would be making choices out of fear (because of the precondition of ignorance) that they would be the ones misfortunate to be born into poverty and not out of compassion for others.

In this country we have had discussions as to why women should be treated equally as men and should be paid as men are for the same jobs, we all agreed it would be a good/fair thing to do but individuals that make those decisions on the everyday basis often do not share those believes (probably they would never admit it publically :mrgreen: ) and we end up with women (on average) earning 70 % as compared to what men do.

Compassion has to come from the inside.
What are the solutions then?

Gassho,

Irina

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Compassion has to come from the inside.
What are the solutions then?

Make a birthday cake?

G,W

[Shindo]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi Steph

some deep thoughts here. In my simple mind - the point:

- sitting: by product - calmness, seeing repeating patterns of thoughts, less reactive, letting go quicker
- action: being kind, assertive, gentle, focused, forgiving

Kindest regards

Jools

ps - I aspire to the above and most days fail miserably

[CinnamonGal]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

We can eat birthday cakes AND care about the world, right?

I really like the way The Interdependence project works and wish we had something like this here in Sweden (maybe we do???). It is a grassroots, community-oriented non-profit organization that focuses on meditation, activism, and the arts.

In his article

The Psychology of Ecology: Exploring the Internal Landscape of Consumption

one of the founders of the project Ethan Nichtern explians how they combine practicing active mindfulness and activism

regarding the most effective ways to be responsible stewards of Planet Earth... to witness what happens in our minds when we try to shift our habits.

Indifference is scary.

Indifference pretends to create peace, but it is based on not caring, a silent resignation.
It is a movement away, a separation fed by a subtle fear of the heart. We pull back, believing that what happens to others is not our concern. Our courage leaves us.
Indifference is a misguided way of defending ourselves.
—Jack Kornfield

Gassho,

Irina

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

We can eat birthday cakes AND care about the world, right?

I think so

Thanks for the post. I was just reading about Joan Halifax Roshi and Upaya Zen Center.

http://www.upaya.org/index.php

Gassho Will

[Stephanie]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Although I do apperciate the opportunity to discuss and debate things I don't believe we can come to any huge changes in the world through discussions.

Au contraire... I believe that it's the only way to promote change. People do not change the way they are inside by being forced to outwardly conform to some standard. What makes people want to change is learning that they have alternatives... that there are other, better ways to be and to achieve their goals. No, a discussion doesn't radically transform a person into a perfect saint, but it plants seeds that may eventually bear fruit. You don't convince anyone of anything, that they should care about this or that. People wake up into compassion on their own, as they grow older, as things happen to them. Dialogue helps them understand what's happening to them and how to cultivate this further. Of course, one wonderful way to cultivate it is Buddhist practice, which people only ever come to because someone mentioned it to them or they asked about it or read about it in a book.

Maybe if we start with exercising metta towards ourselves for starters it will be easier for us to feel more engaged in what is going around? I think we can be cold or disengaged because we think things happen to others, because we humans believe we are isolated and separated from each other and the rest of the universe.

Our simple practice of zazen brings me closer to anyone else and compassion arises of it without me having to think of it. (I think Uchiyama writes about it in his book and would agree that without compassion ours is not a true practice). This is why I don't think that responding or taking action would be something of a duty, rather it would be a normal thing to do as it is a normal thing for a mother to protect her child. This interconnectedness of all things is there every moment but is easy to forget. Yet I am reminded of it every time I do not act in a skilfull way and get an "aftertaste": I feel bad because I treat someone in a bad way but actually it was myself I hurt.

Beautifully put. Compassion and kindness toward ourselves is very definitely the best way to begin, especially if deep down there is some disconnect rooted in self-loathing. Zazen definitely helps one deepen compassion. And compassion is so natural to who we are--I think it is the essence of the human condition. I also think sitting in zazen or something like it is very natural to human beings. Yet both of these things are also experienced as duties because we resist them naturally as well; it takes discipline and commitment to continue the practice day after day even when the going is hard.

Hi Steph

some deep thoughts here. In my simple mind - the point:

- sitting: by product - calmness, seeing repeating patterns of thoughts, less reactive, letting go quicker
- action: being kind, assertive, gentle, focused, forgiving

Kindest regards

Jools

A beautiful summation, Jools. Very nice. Thanks for that.

Gassho--

[chicanobudista]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Although I do apperciate the opportunity to discuss and debate things I don't believe we can come to any huge changes in the world through discussions.

[..] Dialogue helps them understand what's happening to them and how to cultivate this further. Of course, one wonderful way to cultivate it is Buddhist practice, which people only ever come to because someone mentioned it to them or they asked about it or read about it in a book.

Without dialogue, can the sutras exist? :wink:

[CinnamonGal]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Will, thanks, I will check the link right away!

Steph, I am a big fan of discussions but there is a difference in what I think can be achieved when promoting change (I do my best at work with that colleague of mine :lol: ) compared to bringing the change out. We can inform people of the world injustices, talk to them, but as you say this will hardly transform them. Personal experience and the sense of interconnectedness will, I believe. I hear of many people who start cancer foundations or something in that line AFTER they have met cancer face to face. It is not till after things start falling apart for me that I begin relating to others' suffering on a more personal level.

I don't know, I guess it depends on the power of the message. I now believe more in the power of art that engages, something that speaks heart-to-heart (visual art, performance art, dance, music, etc) more than in the power of words (language). The story of the Buddha when he instead of giving a talk picked up a flower really speaks to me more than words could ever say.

I heard of a Zen master meeting a group of businessman who were eager to hear what he had to say. He said one thing only: "You all are going to die." (Imagine their faces! :wink: )

Steph, I guess we will meet half way somewhere .

Gassho,

Irina

[Ryumon]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Steph, I am a big fan of discussions but there is a difference in what I think can be achieved when promoting change (I do my best at work with that colleague of mine :lol: ) compared to bringing the change out. We can inform people of the world injustices, talk to them, but as you say this will hardly transform them. Personal experience and the sense of interconnectedness will, I believe. I hear of many people who start cancer foundations or something in that line AFTER they have met cancer face to face. It is not till after things start falling apart for me that I begin relating to others' suffering on a more personal level.

Having been involved over the years in several associations with goals that could be described as "helping others" or "changing things", I agree that there's an awful lot of hot air spewed for often little progress. Debates go on forever to end up with little practical application. People just can't agree about how to change the world, so they find it much more self-enhancing to talk about it, and to come up with grand theories...

Kirk

[Stephanie]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Irina and Kirk,

I think we may have different conceptions of what is meant by "dialogue" or "conversation" here. Being a windbag and going on and on about your pet theories doesn't accomplish anything other than making people want to smack you! :lol: But I genuinely believe that it is in sincere meeting, face-to-face between people, that any seed of positive social change occurs. Some revolutions begin in the heart of a single person -- Jesus, Buddha, etc. -- but even these people in their studies and lives were in dialogue with their ancestors, with the people that came before them. We see what people have done before and are doing, and we have a conversation about that--either in actuality, face-to-face with other people, or in our own inner lives, in the questions we ask.

I think many of us start with a conception that something "isn't right," and I think you're right Irina that it is often after our own struggles and losses and sufferings. And I sincerely agree with what people have said before that this isn't about some abstract utopic conception of the perfect society, but it starts very much in a down-to-earth way, about encountering the basic struggles people have day after day and asking if it really does have to be this way, if there is any way to change it. These efforts are often arduous, there must be many failures and slow progress, but if you look over the course of human history, we have made great changes in the world that have made the lives of many people so much better, and I believe we can keep doing so.

You see the evidence every day. I see a world that is becoming increasingly aware of the importance of environmental responsibility; I see the tide turning slowly, but perceptibly, in favor of LGBTQ folks in America; I see people becoming increasingly aware of the global impact of our lives and choices. The Enlightenment values of liberty, brotherhood, and equality are pressing on us more than ever. Even if the modern myth of "Progress" is a myth, we cannot say it does not have some reality as well. Not that long ago, in America, women could not vote and were pressed into limited, socially defined roles. Not that long ago, black folks were only "allowed" to drink at certain designated water fountains. And fifty years later, we are on the brink of having a Black president!

These things happened because people put themselves out there, they had a dialogue with the mainstream culture and challenged it, demonstrated peacefully, because people cared and even though they were confused and didn't know what to do to make things better made the effort anyway. To me, this is the most wonderful thing about being a human being, that we can imagine a better world and make it a reality. In my own life, the effort is much often on a smaller scale--as is probably the case for many of us--but to me, that is not the issue. The issue is that we sense on some level the call to wake up and care about our brothers and sisters and put ourselves out there for them in some way, however larger or small. And I continue to think that a religion that does not address this or puts it on the back burner, as some sort of afterthought, is not completely in touch with the truth of our existence and our potential as human beings--

Gassho,

Stephanie

[roky]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

i know, i'm reaching back into some old posts, but i wasn't here then, so..

judging by the emotions this subject has brought up, i'd say something is going on -- no self-respecting buddhist wants to see him/herself as selfish -- and yet any decent path requires brutal self-honesty

i feel steph has a point -- social workers and do-gooders in general, tend to be treated poorly, paid crap, even depicted on screen as, often, the bad guys -- and granted that their are many power-trippers attracted to the work, it still is a very nasty job which often has great benefit for the recipients of services

and often it is a job that needs to be done -- for example, i used to remove severely abused children from violent people -- 2 a.m. i'd get the emergency call, and off i'd go, removing a baby "punished" by being scalded with boiling water

and the cases of sexual molestation by parents, usually men, was just about epidemic

would anyone suggest that we should not intervene in these situations? - well, that is what much of social work is about -- intervening, not sitting back and doing nothing, not swimming in denial

will you do this job? -- or many of the messier jobs like this in our very messed up society?

i think its possible to both do zazen, and "save the world" -- but i don't confuse the one with the other -- i've sat for many years, and did social work for even longer (yes, i'm now burnt out) -- sitting, even for 2 months, is very difficult, but no comparison to intervening as i described above -- so i'm always a bit suspicious of the "boddisatva", particularly in me -- its just too convenient a rationalization

for myself, i'm comfortable with admitting that i am no longer doing the work that i did -- i am, selfishly, pursuing a more self-centered path, doing a lot of zazen -- likd yin and yang, it is the other side of what i did -- i am withdrawn from the community, cause i got to the point that i couldn't even go shopping without seeing so much suffering(this is why i am so attracted to treeleaf -- at least folks are trying)

there are probably many treeleafers, like steph, who have done this work --thank you -- and there are many who have avoided it -- thank you also, for at least working on yourself -- but i believe that is just a beginning, a preparation for the broader, more engaged, "buddhism"

but then, that is what i believe :wink:

gassho, bob

[Stephanie]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Bob, you rock. It sounds like you pushed yourself to the limits and needed to step back for a while. Destroying oneself psychologically doesn't help anyone. We are limited creatures and acknowledging that is living wisely.

I don't think we are obligated to be "do-gooders"; I think guilt over not being on the front lines is misplaced. Like you (and like the existentialists), I believe that our main moral obligation is honesty, to not live in a state of what Sartre called "bad faith." We must realize our complicity in what we are, the way that the people we become reflect the choices we make. There is no one else to blame if we do not like who we are or the world we live in, if we are not acting to make them better.

Where I think bad faith can come in for a Buddhist is an embrace of the bodhisattva vow, the highest embodiment of the precepts, on an intellectual level, but a failure to follow through on it on the level of action. If we can honestly examine and admit why there is a discrepancy between our thinking and our actions, we are still in good faith. But this is difficult because many of us cannot face down the possibility of our own 'badness.' So we make up some sort of intellectual excuse that justifies our failure to live with integrity, according to the religious vision to which we claim to subscribe.

This is where Shakyamuni came in with incorporating 'Right Livelihood' as part of the Eightfold Path. I think 'Right Livelihood' extends beyond the area of industry in which one works and more generally stands as an injunction to live an honest life. It demands us to acknowledge how we live as a choice and not an imposition of an inescapable fate. If the work we do goes against what we claim to believe, we must reckon with that. We must say, "I am the author." Here is the moral battlefield: not that there is only one acceptable choice for how to be in the world with integrity, but that integrity demands we acknowledge our responsibility for what we do.

More than I see examples of people committing truly horrible acts, every day I see examples of people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions. It is always someone else's fault, or a twist of fate. Or perhaps they argue that they are not doing what they seem to be doing. This is what I find abhorrent; not that people have behaved badly, but that they cannot even take ownership of that. Despite Buddhism's rigorous demands for self-awareness, I have known many Buddhists who have used the teachings and logic of Buddhism to deepen their self-deception, not overcome it. They find a cosmic justification for their passivity in a misapprehension of Buddhist teaching.

I believe that looking at the world and saying, "All is as it should be," is the consummate act of bad faith. It is morally, intellectually, and spiritually dishonest. And people do it every day. "Everything happens for a reason," is a favorite saying, by which people mean that if something bad has happened, it was because the Universe needed it to be that way, not because they made a bad choice.

What bothers me is not that some people choose not to take action, but that they find ways to either deny it is a choice or to justify their lack of action as cosmically justified. If there is a God, we know from all religions what God wants most of us is to love our neighbor and to make this world more just; if there is no God, we know that the whole shebang is our responsibility. There is no way around it. I believe that this is the height of the human project we are approaching here, that we can take responsibility, and shape our world.

This is why I cannot embrace a religion that centers itself on the notion of passive acceptance. I think I understand what Jundo is getting at when he talks about "acceptance without acceptance." Zazen practice can help us find equanimity in even the most brutal situations. But if the end result is that we become passive, we are acting in bad faith, because as Sartre said, we cannot escape the act of choosing. To choose not to choose is a choice. But developing equanimity does not have to lead to passivity; instead, it can mean accepting our responsibility.

I do not believe it is our responsibility to jump on board for every cause that moves us, but it is our responsibility to acknowledge that we can shape our world. That we are capable of empathy and compassion shows us that our world is not acceptable, because people suffer in ways we find unconscionable, and for reasons that are not inevitable. Thus to say "All is as it should be" is to commit an intellectually and morally atrocious act. This is where the crisis arises: what then do we do? How do we choose to live in a world that is not as it should be? It is when we have reckoned with this that we can live in true peace and acceptance, because we are no longer playing games of self-deception to avoid our conscience. Once we choose to reckon with ourselves honestly, all the anxiety falls away, because we have accepted our role.

[Dosho]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Great posts Bob and Stephanie!

I have always felt the pull to help others and volunteer when I can, but much of my childhood was spent being told my needs were secondary to those around me. So, while the idea of serving others is a great thing, it can't be put above care for the self in every instance. One of my trepidations about Zen is that I have heard much of what is involved is the breaking down of the ego and the self, but what do you do if the ego is underdeveloped? I'm guessing that really wouldn't be seen as a problem here and to say I have no ego at all would be untrue, but when I am challenged in my ideas my tendency isn't to respond with assurance. Instead I recoil most of the time and allow other's opinions to be "better" than my own.

So, it will be an interesting balance to strike and I feel up to the task, but it will require me to face my fear and try to let go of many things.

BTW, if that was completely off topic I do beg everyone's pardon!

Gassho,
Scott