The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

[Jundo]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Will, I'd think you'd have lived long enough by now for life to have knocked that unrealistic idealism out of you. If you sit around waiting until you're perfectly free from delusion or bad habits to act on behalf of realizing good for others, you're never going to end up doing anything but sitting around. Plenty of un-enlightened, flawed people have done amazing things to actualize social justice, while plenty of so-called "enlightened" individuals, who have been given Dharma transmission by respected teachers, who have sat hours and hours of zazen over years and years, have done a lot of horrible and destructive things and harmed a lot of people. Zazen isn't a magic pill that takes away your human foibles. It certainly can (but does not necessarily) help you deal with situations better and more clearly, but it's not a prerequisite for effective, compassionate activity in the world. Also, in my opinion, zazen is only as useful as the life in which it is practiced.

I like what Shui Di said.

Gassho--

Hi Steph,

Plenty of doctors, despite the Hypocratic oath, have done horrible things. Other doctors have saved countless lives.

You are right that Zen practice, or even being so-called "enlightened", sure ain't a requisite for effective, compassionate activity in the world. Anyone is capable of that! But if employed wisely, Zen practice can be a stimulus and support for someone engaged in such activities.

Gassho, Jundo

[Stephanie]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi Steph,

Plenty of doctors, despite the Hypocratic oath, have done horrible things. Other doctors have saved countless lives.

You are right that Zen practice, or even being so-called "enlightened", sure ain't a requisite for effective, compassionate activity in the world. Anyone is capable of that! But if employed wisely, Zen practice can be a stimulus and support for someone engaged in such activities.

Gassho, Jundo

Jundo --gassho-- I agree completely. Here's what I was disagreeing with:

It is better not to act at all, than to act in delusion.

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice..

Thank you for your post Stephanie.

Not doing harm I think comes naturally from Zazen. I'm not sure. When we aren't necessarily running around doing what we "think" is right. You see, there's this joy that comes from practice. When you smell, and just let everything be. Now, I don't have all the answers. I don't really know what to say, but I sat outside today with the trees and flies and insects and birds letting everything be. Somewhere in there (I don't know how or when) I actually started paying attention, or became intimate without attachment.

I got up, could have stayed sitting I guess, but I got up and started walking back to the apartment. Usually when I encounter people there is some sort of tension or aversion. However, that wasn't there. I could sense it arising, but it just didn't. Within that there was no anger or greed. I felt a perhaps "Love" for what I encountered. People, birds etc.. (Not the frilly pink heart Love) but just a compassion maybe. Now, I really can't say anything about it. I don't know. I'm not tripping out. The "I" that usually guides me wasn't there like usual. I wasn't really afraid like I usually am.

I just got back and am now typing this out.

Thank you for your effort I guess.

Gassho Will

[Stephanie]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice..

Not doing harm I think comes naturally from Zazen. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure either :wink:

A beautiful post--gassho--I just disagree with the premises that (a) people need to be enlightened to manifest Dharmic activity in the world and (b) zazen acts like a magic eraser that erases all of your bad stuff and that thus makes your actions better. Don't get me wrong, I've found that the practice of zazen has certainly helped me to become a wiser, more compassionate, braver person. It's just that I've also found that nothing, including zazen, is a "fix" for the dichotomy of human existence, that we are so good, but also so rotten. And people who think that spiritual practice and all the nice side effects it can bring about deliver them from evil often end up doing some pretty atrocious things. That is the dark side of idealism--that our preference for the beautiful visions we can conjure up can blind us to some of the less appetizing aspects of our own current realities, that need to be dealt with in a much less airy-fairy way.

[prg5001]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi,

The "point" of Shikantaza-based Zen practice to me is to try and see the way things really are, to see what is really going on. First, it's a uncomfortable struggle, then a bit of quiet comes along with a few whizzes and bangs, then an awareness of what is happening at that time. I see thoughts come and go, hear noises, feel air moving all in the same context of me.

I don't think this directly makes me a better person, but because each time I sit, I see a little bit more of myself I see how a human being (me) is in the world. And so I can understand a little bit more of what I am and where I am. And with a little bit more understanding come a bit more compassion, I can see my state and so empathise with others automatically, like people with similar problems form self-help groups as they understand and can help each other without condesenscion.

I'm not sure if I expressed this very well or this answers the question. It's a big quesion.

Cheers,

Paul

[Eika]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

We cannot blame our inaction on Zen.



Gassho,
Bill

[Dojin]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice..

A beautiful post--gassho--I just disagree with the premises that (a) people need to be enlightened to manifest Dharmic activity in the world and (b) zazen acts like a magic eraser that erases all of your bad stuff and that thus makes your actions better. Don't get me wrong, I've found that the practice of zazen has certainly helped me to become a wiser, more compassionate, braver person. It's just that I've also found that nothing, including zazen, is a "fix" for the dichotomy of human existence, that we are so good, but also so rotten. And people who think that spiritual practice and all the nice side effects it can bring about deliver them from evil often end up doing some pretty atrocious things. That is the dark side of idealism--that our preference for the beautiful visions we can conjure up can blind us to some of the less appetizing aspects of our own current realities, that need to be dealt with in a much less airy-fairy way.

Hey Stephanie.

i think you are kinda fixed on some idea you have, which is things should be a certain way...
maybe they should, but than again maybe they should be any way but the way they are?

changing the world? being enlightened in order to do so? i am not sure.
i think that by being enlightened you are nothing but an enlightened person.
you dont have to do anything... but it is our nature that arises in us and guides all our actions whether we like it or not.
yet our true self or buddha self as some call it has been lost, it has been buried under our knowledge, teaching, costumes, society, and all we think we know or we think we are.
by dropping all those things you become nothing more than a person that dropped them.
i also believe that people are good deep down. and a person who has dropped it all will be more likely to help from compassion.

when i was younger i wanted to change the world. i wanted to fight in justice. i wanted to force the world to see the light and be good.
you cannot make an omelet without breaking a few eggs...
i emphasized the word fight for a reason, many people who try to change the world try to do it for the wrong reasons. they see it as a war... we have to fight against evil... we need to open the eyes of the people, we need to abolish tyranny... we must defeat evil...

it is a fight we do it since it is something we believe in... our view of the world is right it cant be the other way around... it has to be this way!!!
it is a selfish view... many people wish to help so they could feel better about themselves, it is another reason which is selfish.

a person who helps from a sense of compassion does that for other reasons... he accepts all views and only strives to help while doing no evil...
would a person who is against the killing of baby seals for their fur help a starving men eat and feed his family by helping him kill that seal?

about erasing the past and such by zazen... i do not believe it to be so, i do not think it really changes anything. i have done many things i am not proud of and hurt many people and i am likely to slip up and do might hurt some other people. so i dont think zazen erases anything.. but it might help me deal with my life and understand myself and other people better by giving me the ability to control myself better, and the precepts help guide me when ever i get lost...
one thing i did notice the i developed from the practice is this.
even if i lose my grip and hurt people and say things that might not be very nice... i know what i did and that i did something hurtful and i can come over and apologize and ask for forgiveness.

the point is no body is perfect... we all get side tracked sometimes. yet it is our practice and our way of life that hopefully helps us do the right thing in the end...

talked so much, said so little seems little!
forgive me if i have wasted your time.

p.s.

there is wonderful metaphor for the practice of zen

http://www.emoyeni-retreat.com/id99.htm

gassho

[Stephanie]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Zen, thanks for your reply. In my personal vision, I see no utopia to strive for, no perfect way for things to be; nor do I see any evil beings for us to fight or destroy. What I see is greed and ignorance causing unnecessary suffering, and a world full of people that know a lot of things are wrong, but are in denial or too cynical to do anything about them. Racism, sexism, oppression, exploitation--these are things we can do something about, and that a lot of people are doing something about. And you can work against these things without hatred, but with joy and even a sense of humor. The joy of social justice work is that if it is done out of metta, out of respect and concern for others instead of anger and blame, everyone lightens up, even in really ugly situations. It's almost like the magic you read about in fairy tales as a little kid. People don't really understand what's happening, or why something that seemed so ugly and difficult actually can be a pleasure. It's remarkable.

One of the few truths I have discovered is that our capacity to imagine a better world and to work to bring it about, whatever it is, wherever it comes from, and whyever it exists, if there is any reason at all, is sacred; true awakening is not passive or self-indulgent, but is manifested as the recognition of a call to action. This is even modelled for us in the story of the Buddha's awakening: his first impulse was simply to enjoy his inner freedom, but then the Gods asked him to teach, to live a life of action for the benefit of sentient beings, and Indra and Brahma helped him realize his duty to the rest of the world as an awakened being. And I think that anyone who in their heart knows that something is wrong, whether or not they are perfectly enlightened, has a duty to respond to that knowledge. That is the Mahayana in action.

Gassho--

[Dojin]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

could be, could be Steph... but than again... who is to decide what is the best action?
maybe if everyone one did their part and acted kindly to one another it would change the world much more than a grand revolution?
i think that do teach people and help them one by one... by living a life that is kind and compassionate we might actually help more than by trying to change everything that seems wrong.
live your life... day by day moment by moment while straving to do good and to avoid evil if everyone did that the world would be better than by any great movment to change the world and bring social justice...

but than again i may be wrong...

we each must find our way to live according to what is right for us.

The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one

Wilhelm Stekel (Austrian psychoanalyst, 1868-1940)

i first read it in the catcher in the rye when i was 17, and it always stayed with me... i think he has a point

[Chris H]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

I totally agree Zen. I certainly admire leaders of movements and people that stand in front of tanks and all that dramatic stuff, but I think the world is ultimately saved one person at a time, and our greatest power to effect that is in the direct commerce we have with people every day—family members, co-workers, people outside our door etc. Every action is a pattern you put into the world for further actions. Favors, good-will, are passed on. It may not be as inspirational or sexy but there it is.

(At least I hope so because, y'know, I'm just not Ghandi.)

[Dainin]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Deleted

[Chris H]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

What I see is greed and ignorance causing unnecessary suffering, and a world full of people that know a lot of things are wrong, but are in denial or too cynical to do anything about them.

And Buddhism, if it is anything, is a way to free yourself from greed, and the ignorance that creates it. Many people would argue that avarice itself is the root of all evil. Buddhism posits it is the root of all suffering. People can call themselves whatever they want, Zen Master Rama, whatever, and do bad things in its name, but it would seem if one is living their true buddha nature and imparting that to others, they are doing as much as anyone to make the world better.

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice..

What I see is greed and ignorance causing unnecessary suffering, and a world full of people that know a lot of things are wrong, but are in denial or too cynical to do anything about them.

Your right Stephanie. And we should all follow what you say. Because there is only one perspective. Imaginary. And what are you going to do about it? Are you going to pass out flyers? Hit people on the head? Tell them to wake up. Yell at them? Dictate what each sentient being should be doing and not be doing? I'm not going to follow what you say and I don't see why anyone else should. I will do what I do. You do what you do. If that decision comes to me then I will face it then.

a world full of people that know a lot of things are wrong, but are in denial or too cynical to do anything about them

And a world full of people who nurse the wounds of victims. Who feed those who have no food. Who care for the sick and dying. Who give shelter to those who have none. Who smile and laugh in the midst of opression. Who plant trees. Who fight for and inform about environmental concerns. Who give a hug. Who work with the mentally ill. Who fight for humanitarian rights. Who raise a child. Who give orphns a homeand an education. Who pick up garbage off of the streets. Who show compassion in little ways that you don't read about in the paper, or on the news, or on the internet, in books, magazines, newspapers, or journals.

Buddhism is one of the most important of all. Buddhism works with the root of all suffering. Where would the world turn if there were no monks and teachers who have given up their life for helping all living beings. If you don't truly understand this point in your heart, then you have gained no understanding, or wisdom from your practice.

One of the few truths I have discovered is that our capacity to imagine a better world and to work to bring it about, whatever it is, wherever it comes from, and whyever it exists, if there is any reason at all, is sacred; true awakening is not passive or self-indulgent, but is manifested as the recognition of a call to action. This is even modelled for us in the story of the Buddha's awakening: his first impulse was simply to enjoy his inner freedom, but then the Gods asked him to teach, to live a life of action for the benefit of sentient beings, and Indra and Brahma helped him realize his duty to the rest of the world as an awakened being. And I think that anyone who in their heart knows that something is wrong, whether or not they are perfectly enlightened, has a duty to respond to that knowledge. That is the Mahayana in action.

Imaginary. Fight the good fight Steph, but don't expect me to fight with you, your way.

Thank you for your efforts
Gassho

[Stephanie]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

maybe if everyone one did their part and acted kindly to one another it would change the world much more than a grand revolution?
i think that do teach people and help them one by one... by living a life that is kind and compassionate we might actually help more than by trying to change everything that seems wrong.
live your life... day by day moment by moment while straving to do good and to avoid evil if everyone did that the world would be better than by any great movment to change the world and bring social justice...

but than again i may be wrong...

You may be, but I agree with you. I think that compassion is centered in the "little" things we do every day. I believe that there is a place for doing "big" things, but I think that those "big" efforts are only successful when they grow naturally out of the way we are in our daily lives and "mundane" interactions. The way that each of us manifests kindness or goodness will be different, and that is wonderful. And we might argue with each other about our priorities, but at the end of the day, kindness is kindness, and that's the source of all of it.

Your right Stephanie. And we should all follow what you say. Because there is only one perspective. Imaginary. And what are you going to do about it? Are you going to pass out flyers? Hit people on the head? Tell them to wake up. Yell at them? Dictate what each sentient being should be doing and not be doing? I'm not going to follow what you say and I don't see why anyone else should. I will do what I do. You do what you do. If that decision comes to me then I will face it then.

Will, I think you're reacting to stuff I haven't said. Yes, I believe that certain social phenomena are "wrong," but I don't believe the right approach is to violently try to force people to change, nor do I have a grand idea of exactly how people should behave and go about their daily lives (I'll leave that to Dogen). I strongly believe in the value of dialogue and debate, and in the simple power of presenting a different point of view, a different vision of how things can be, which people can then take or leave. I believe in the value of the effort of treating all people with respect and kindness, no matter who they are or what they've done. We can engage in work for change in a way that is constructive and creative, rather than controlling. This approach also involves an openness to the other's point of view, an interest in why they believe and act in the way they do, and a willingness to end up being the person who finds and admits you were wrong!

Aw, come on, Steph: 'Gods', 'what Buddha did', 'the Mahayana'... what a crock of religious sh*t you're buying into. How disappointing.

Get real. Real, authentic people are the most useful.

Want a verbose discourse on what constitutes 'authentic'?

Whatever you think it is, its not that.

Rock on, Sister. Don't believe the 'buddhist' hype.

Harry.

Harry, I find religious myth, language, and theory to be inspiring, but I'm not sure I'm "buying into" anything. I have no doctrine or dogma guiding me, and this is actually what plunges me into despair sometimes. But what I do see is the way certain images, words, and stories point to certain subjective experiences that many of us share but that are hard to talk about. I believe that religion is a fundamentally creative endeavor in the same way painting or music-making is, and that we lose something when we read as prose what should be read as poetry. Coming up with new myths is the apex of this creative endeavor, but it is not so easy and the old myths still carry resonance if engaged correctly, in my experience.

And yes, I actually would be interested in a verbose discourse on authenticity :wink:

[Stephanie]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

I should add this, because the thought is so comical to me that I would think myself so good or wise that I should be able to enforce my ideas on others or think that others should want to be just like me. As I think I have made obvious here, my life can often be a Hell; I roam along the borders of insanity and can be downright nasty, petty, and self-indulgent. I am ferociously lonely, sometimes bitter, and often in some sort of pain. No one in their right mind would want my life; thank Indra that's not the point! The only time people actually "listen" to you is when your "speech" is not just words, but something you manifest; the only time I have had a positive impact on anyone is when compassion has come through, even in spite of the nastier stuff that gets in its way, which in turn arises largely due to the practice of zazen. Which brings us back to...