How is Zen different?

[Shinshou]

I'm interested to know from others' perspectives: what are the hallmarks of Zen? What are the core teachings/beliefs/practices that set it apart from other types of Buddhism? If you were talking to a Buddhist who somehow had no concept of Zen Buddhism, how, in a few sentences, would you give them an overview of its distinctions from the rest of Buddhism? I have my opinions, but would love to hear from the sangha.

Dan
Sat today/lah

[Kakunen]

Good morning from Japan.

Please do not have opinion,just follow Dogen.That is all.

Gassho.

[Jakuden]

Well yes, in Soto Zen we follow Dogen!

I guess off the top of my head, I would have thought of the special emphasis we give sitting meditation, or Zazen, above all else. And in Soto Zen, that's all of it in a nutshell. In Rinzai Zen, sitting meditation with meditating on Koans as well.
Of course there are forms and trappings and other things, which in Zen are pretty minimalist compared to other types of Buddhism.
Of course I could be wrong. [emoji4]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Geika]

My answer would be Jakuden's answer!

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Jundo]

Hmmmm. Hmmmm Hmmmm.

In all these years of Treeleaf, I don't know that it was ever asked so directly. So, here is a super-nutshell opinion:

All flavors of Buddhism, Zen included, generally center on these Truths, sometimes called the "Three Seals" ... impermanence, suffering (Dukkha) and non-self. Mahayana schools tend to add such teachings as a realization of original Buddha Nature/Dharmakaya/Big "B" Buddha" (there are many words for this ... and Wordless ), realizing the wondrous interflowing wholeness of "Emptiness", and our "Bodhisattva Vow" to rescue all the sentient beings (which rescue, by the way, happens when we help them realize all the aforementioned stuff too!). All schools of Buddhism emphasize living by the Precepts in some fashion (as we are now reflecting on in our Jukai Preparations).

If you are wondering exactly what any of the above are ... well, that is pretty much all we Practice and talk about around here in our Sangha each day! In a way, that is all we study.

Now, details vary on how the varied schools of Buddhism throughout history approach and interpret each of the above. For example, the South Asian schools such as Theravada do not emphasize finding Dharmakaya/Big "B" Buddha" so much, or the wondrous interflowing wholeness of Emptiness ... and their approach generally is to realize the impermanence and falsity of the body, and "get the heck out of Dodge" (an Americanism http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...t%20of%20Dodge ), escaping from the cycle of rebirths after death and from this body and life eventually. Some schools of Mahayana, such as the Pure Land schools, say that liberation is impossible for people, so emphasize a messiah like figure (very similar to Jesus) named "Amida Buddha" who will come to you on your deathbed if you just have faith and say his name, and he will take you to a heaven like place after death where you can be liberated. Some schools emphasize very strict interpretations of the Precepts, especially for monks, such as no sex. Some schools (mostly Japanese flavors of Buddhism) say that their clergy can marry.

The Zen schools came along and tended to emphasize liberation in this life through realization of Buddha Nature/Dharmakaya/Big "B" Buddha" (and Wordless) and the wondrous interflowing wholeness of "Emptiness" in this life. Other schools of Buddhism are less open to how available it is in this life, feeling that it may take untold lives after life to become Buddha. Although opinions varied on whether there was rebirth after death, most Zen folks saw that as something of a dream, a delusion, which could be transcended in this life by realization of the foregoing. One can live in this life of suffering and separation ("Samsara" is the Sanskrit word for this messed up world) and realize such which is beyond all suffering and separation ("Nirvana") at once, as one, seeing through the ugliness and tangle of Samsara even while right in Samsara. Cake and eat it too (but all things in moderation!) Buddhism!

The two main Zen flavors, Rinzai and Soto, tend to emphasize seated Zazen as their main focus to realize all this, although they both also emphasize that we need to get up from the cushion and realize this in all of life, in all day to day activities. And Zen priests tend to do various other practices too, depending on their taste, such Chanting the Heart Sutra about Emptiness and various other Sutras, or doing various rituals, (including in some cases also calling out to Amida Buddha, which is all mixed into Zen in China and Korea and Vietnam ... called Chan in China, Son in Korea, Thien in Vietnam ... although not so common in Japan)

And, of course, the Rinzai folks tend to sit Zazen with Koans, introspecting Koan phrases. Soto folks, as here at Treeleaf, sit the radical non-gaining and choiceless awareness of Shikantaza as guided by Dogen and the other Soto teachers.

That is my too simple explanation.

After that, please do as Kakunen advices ... Just Sit.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

By the way, I would hesitate to call "Theravadan" Buddhism more "Basic" or "Original" Buddhism than the Mahayana teachings. The reason is merely that all of us are 2500 years "down the road" from old Gautama Buddha. Though many folks have an image of "Theravadan" Buddhism as being "original", the truth is that it is also the product of centuries of evolution and doctrinal developments. I often write this when that subject comes up ...

[O]ne thing for folks to remember is that Buddhism did change and evolve over many centuries, as it passed from culture to culture in Asia. The Buddha lived 2500 years ago in ancient India, whereupon the philosophy passed to China 1000 years later, and then to someone like Master Dogen who lived about 1000 years after that in medieval Japan. You and I live in the strange world known as the 21st century. Certainly, some changes arose along the way in some important interpretations and outer forms. For example, the Chinese made Zen Practice very Chinese, the Japanese very medieval Japanese, and now we are making it very Western.

However, the Heart of the Buddha's teachings ... the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Non-Self, Non-Attachment, the Middle Way, etc. etc., ... All are here now as much as there then!!

How?

On the one hand some outer stuff is, well, changed. For example, when Buddhism came to China it was heavily influenced by, and pretty much merged with, Taoism (not to mention that it was already "Mahayana Buddhism" by that time, a very different flavor from the original). The result was this little thing we now call "Zen Buddhism". So, congratulations, we are already "Taoists" and "Mahayana Buddhists" ... not just "Buddhists". When it got to Japan, the Japanese added Japanese culture to it. In the West, we are now making some very good changes (although we have to, of course, try to avoid bad changes). These good changes include equality of the sexes and a greater emphasis on lay practice.

But it is still Buddhism. What Dogen taught was Buddhism. What we do around Treeleaf (I do believe) is as Buddhism as Buddhism can be.

I will even go so far as to say (and this is the kind of statement that has gotten me into all kinds of trouble on with some folks in Buddhism's own fundamentalist quarters) that maybe, just maybe, later Buddhism actually made some big and important "improvements" to the Buddha's original formulation with all those additions, and a couple of thousand years of working out the kinks and bugs. It is much like saying that Buddha was Henry Ford, who first thought up the brilliant idea of sticking 4 wheels on an internal combustion engine, but now we can drive a Prius! I even say that maybe, just maybe, the Buddha was not infallible on every darn thing. Not on the vital heart of the teachings, mind you. But while he was 90% right in his proposals, he maybe also had some klunkers and narrow ideas here and there (as fits a man who lived in a traditional, myth based society some 2500 years ago in ancient India) ... like the whole thing about an overly mechanical view of rebirth, the place of women, the need to abandon the world and family in order to Practice and to repress or extinquish (as opposed to moderate & balance & pierce) the desires and emotions. ...

Dogen was different from Shakyamuni Buddha, who are both different from all of us.

But when we are sitting a moment of Zazen ... perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... piercing Dukkha, attaining non-self, non-attached ... then there is not the slightest gap between each of us and the Buddha.

[Kyonin]

Hi Dan,

Jundo's reply was very useful and I have not a lot to add. I would just say that this practice has shikantaza as a pillar and foundation to everything else.

When we sit we become the Precepts. We sit in stillness and become the personification of the Buddhadharma and honor the Masters.

And of course, we follow Dogen's teachings.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[FaithMoon]

I'm fuzzy on the details, but isn't one way zen differs is in the precepts taken? In Soto there are 16 bodhisattva precepts, in many others there are 5 lay precepts (and then more for each level of commitment up to over 300 for Bhikkhunis) .

Faithmoon
st

[Jundo]

I'm fuzzy on the details, but isn't one way zen differs is in the precepts taken? In Soto there are 16 bodhisattva precepts, in many others there are 5 lay precepts (and then more for each level of commitment up to over 300 for Bhikkhunis) .

Faithmoon
st

In Japan, the Precepts for both monks and lay people became the same 16 Bodhisattva Precepts that our Treeleaf folks will be undertaking in Jukai. The wording of the 16 Precepts for both monks/priests and lay folks is exactly the same in Japanese Zen. However, in the view of the Japanese clergy, the 16 Precepts for monks both contain and transcend all the earlier Indian 227 Vinaya Precepts for monks and 311 Precepts for nuns (the women had extra Precepts as you know). Further, though they are the same in words for monk and lay, the interpretation for monks was also for the monks lifestyle as monk/priest, and for the lay person as householder. So, the wording was the same, but the meaning different for monks and lay householders. In China, there are also Precepts (such as the set of 5 you mention) that cover much of the same ground as the 16 Precepts for lay folks in Japan.

In China, Korea and Vietnam, the monks (including Chan/Son/Thien/Zen monks) take the full 227/311 Vinaya Precepts formally, but they do not live by the full 227/311. They also take a set of Mahayana Precepts that overlap with the 16 Precepts. It is very complicated. It is one reason that many of the priests "on the continent" say that the Japanese priests are "just laypeople with funny clothes", especially as the Japanese now marry. However, in reality, until the 19th Century, the lifestyle of monks on the continent and monks in Japan was about the same. Obviously, the allowance of marriage for the Japanese is a huge change that happened in the late 19th century (although actually began discretely much earlier).

If you ask me, what has happened is not so different from what happened in Europe during the Reformation, with a celibate Catholic Church in Southern Europe, and a married Protestant clergy which developed in the North.

Precisely the same, although a bit different; A tad different but same beyond same.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shinshou]

How is Zen different?

Thanks for your replies, especially for Jundo's thorough-yet-super-in-a-nutshell reply! I had a dream/vision that I was trying to explain zen to a coworker and didn't know what to say in one minute that would adequately describe it. Shikantaza is of course a great start, I think so is the idea that we can realize/are liberation at every moment rather than it being some far off goal to be attained.

Dan
Sat today


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[Tenrai]

Great thread again. For me it is the vastness of the simplicity that Zen focusses on does it for me.

Gassho
Richard
SatToday/LAH

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[Meikyo]

Thank you all very much for this.

So succinct. Just this.

Gassho
Meikyo
ST

[Ryudo]

Thank you Jundo.
Thank you all for this teaching.

Gassho
Marcus
SatToday/LAH