The Zen Buddhist Nuclear Weapons Expert in Trump's White House

[Hoseki]

Curious that not a word was said when the fascist president Obama gave weapons of mass destruction to the Muslim Brotherhood, who are known murderers.

Hi,

I wasn't a fan of Obama or many of his policies but he wasn't a fascist in anyway that I'm aware of. I'm also not familiar with the administration giving weapons to the Muslim brotherhood. Do you have evidence of this?

Incidentally, if I've offended you it wasn't my intent. I'm trying, perhaps clumsily, to express my problem understanding people reconciling large scale violence and Buddhism. It say a lot about my Karma.

Sometimes I feel like I'm grandpa Simpson in this picture.

I would have put these last two post together but I want sure how.

Gassho

Hoseki
Sat today/LAH



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[Byokan]

odiedoodie, I'm curious to know more...

There's no question that the U.S has a long history of arming groups and later declaring them enemies! We're also the only country that ever used atomic weapons, so our high moral stance about who can or can't have them is a little disingenuous. But the subject at hand is whether a Buddhist can support nuclear armament, in line with the Precepts.

As we go deeper into this lets remember gentle speech. An alternative to simply calling someone a fascist or a murderer would be to spell out what you know and tell us what you think about it in the context of the question at hand. I welcome hearing and considering differing views.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Kaishin]

Kim Jong Un will not do anything. He is a fat man who enjoys western entertainment and creature comforts, and wants to protect his family's dynasty. Big hat, no cattle. He will probably continue shooting missiles into the ocean. He knows that any direct conflict will result in his country's complete annihilation, along with who knows how much of the rest of the world. Tense diplomacy is probably best.

But maybe it is time for the cockroaches to rule the earth.

We are such a vain species to continue thinking that the universe will mourn our absence! Perhaps it is better off without us.

[Shoka]

If anyone is interested here is a link to the paper referenced in the article.

Nukes and the Vow: Security Strategy as Peacework by Dr. Christopher Ford ...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.upaya.org/uploads/pdfs/NukesandtheVowfinal.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwivkov5trDWAhUW32MKHVTZD68QFgglMAA&usg=AFQjCNHOb4KhZmsCxYow5CfDcZ5Fnhwihw

I haven't read it yet, but will before posting on this topic.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

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[Jundo]

If anyone is interested here is a link to the paper referenced in the article.

Nukes and the Vow: Security Strategy as Peacework by Dr. Christopher Ford ...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.upaya.org/uploads/pdfs/NukesandtheVowfinal.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwivkov5trDWAhUW32MKHVTZD68QFgglMAA&usg=AFQjCNHOb4KhZmsCxYow5CfDcZ5Fnhwihw

I haven't read it yet, but will before posting on this topic.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

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Thank you. I was just about to post it. One person who was part of Dr. Ford's Chaplaincy program at Upaya Zen Center has written elsewhere ...

First, I [Maia Duerr] was director of the chaplaincy program at Upaya while Chris was enrolled, so spent two years together, practicing, studying, and exploring the intersection of the buddha way and contemporary sites of suffering. At the end of those two years, Chris was ordained as a lay Buddhist chaplain -- not as a priest as some people are jumping to conclude above. He met every requirement of the program and put himself wholeheartedly in the curriculum. Chris didn't take any of this lightly, and if you take the time to read his thesis, you'll get some sense of what a deep thinker he is, and that he takes the vow to not harm/reduce harm very seriously.

I didn't always agree with Chris, but I always respected his dedication to turning over these issues deeply, in light of dharma teachings. Again, I would encourage you to read his words before jumping to conclusions and judgments. I feel what we need in our sanghas is an even greater commitment to looking and listening deeply, to noticing our own addictions to absolute-isms (and I include myself in that), and to leaning into diverse perspectives to see what we might learn...

gassho.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Soto...%3A%22R7%22%7D

She also wrote an article on this, back in 2010 ...

Challenging Questions for Engaged Buddhism

https://jizochronicles.com/2010/09/30/challenging-questions-for-engaged-buddhism/

Personally, I believe that nuclear and all weapons of mass destruction are abhorrent, both to the Precept on Preserving Life and to all human sensibilities. I am against war.

That being said, I can see that war (which, terribly, always involves the lost of non-combatant life) may sometimes be necessary in order to preserve a greater number of non-combatant human lives, and I recognize that there is value in preserving western societies even if through war. It is, to my eyes, the lesser of two terrible evils sometimes.

Others, fully in keeping with their view of the Precepts and general morality, will disagree,

I believe that all nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction are abhorrent, and infringe the Precept on Preserving life. However, I also recognize the legitimate argument that nuclear weapons have actually prevented war and loss of life overall, and thus are in keeping with the Precepts (Dr. Ford's assertion). It may be so.

Various Buddhists, fully in keeping with their view of the Precepts and general morality, will disagree with each other,

As we go deeper into this lets remember gentle speech

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Hoseki]

Thank you Jundo and Shoka. I've read the article and found it stimulating. I also got a good look in the mirror. I know virtually nothing of Ford's character yet I filled in quite a bit of background based own history dealing with others. I picture him as foaming at the mouth at the opportunity of going to war. My cup was too full as one might say. I can't say that I think nuclear disarmament is a bad idea but I can see why one might think it is.

For anyone who hasn't read the article I understood Ford to be saying that whether disarmament is or isn't a good idea depends on the believed effects of disarmament. But also to realize that these believed effects are predictions that could turn out to be wrong and are we willing to take that chance. This isn't all hes saying but that was the big take away for me.

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday

[Meishin]

Hello,

This discussion is particularly interesting given the Ken Burns/Lynn Novick series on Vietnam currently on PBS. Some similar issues there -- the limits of painting in blacks and whites only. Heartily recommended.

Here's a podcast from today Washington Post re last night's episode: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ec24ac2d75ff

Gassho
Meishin
Sat Today LAH

[Joyo]

Personally, I believe that nuclear and all weapons of mass destruction are abhorrent, both to the Precept on Preserving Life and to all human sensibilities. I am against war.

That being said, I can see that war (which, terribly, always involves the lost of non-combatant life) may sometimes be necessary in order to preserve a greater number of non-combatant human lives, and I recognize that there is value in preserving western societies even if through war. It is, to my eyes, the lesser of two terrible evils sometimes.

Others, fully in keeping with their view of the Precepts and general morality, will disagree,

I believe that all nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction are abhorrent, and infringe the Precept on Preserving life. However, I also recognize the legitimate argument that nuclear weapons have actually prevented war and loss of life overall, and thus are in keeping with the Precepts (Dr. Ford's assertion). It may be so.

Various Buddhists, fully in keeping with their view of the Precepts and general morality, will disagree with each other,





Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

I totally agree with you, Jundo. And yet I wonder, how would these Buddhist (or anyone totally against war for that matter) feel if ISIS invaded their own country and started burning their homes, horrifically torturing them and their loved ones, all for being Buddhist. Would they still be against war?

Unfortunately, people need to be governed and controlled with laws and consequences. We need armies and police. I spoke with a group of anarchists one time on Facebook. I had some hard questions for them (their ideas of non-government were very utopia-like) and they were unable to give me any answers.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Risho]

Speaking of war, a really awesome podcast is Jocko Podcast. He's an ex-Navy Seal who breaks down war from a perspective of someone who was in war. He was in the Battle of Ramadi in the early 2000's.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jundo]

I post simply because it is a striking visual image that highlights the complexities of this world. In Zen the Absolute is Wordless, beyond war or anything to fight for, and impossible to kill. Yet, here in the messy ordinary world of Samsara, sometimes a picture says more than 1000 words.

I believe that Buddhists should avoid violence to the extent possible, seeking any other available alternative to preserve life. That being said, do you know that even the Dalai Lama escaped Tibet under armed guard, who fought their way out to maintain his safety? It is true, although not a well known story. Do you know that even the Buddha was said to travel with an armed guard(at least, in some traditional stories)? Also true. (https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...AQBAJ&pg=PA472...) Here in Samsara, one must sometimes make difficult choices in order to preserve life. I do, however, believe that one must carry the psychological Karma of one's violent acts. I once had to counsel a police office who, in a fully justified shooting to rescue a hostage, took the life of someone. Justified or not, he would carry the weight of having done so with him for his life.

Dalai Lama guard recalls leader’s dramatic escape

https://www.tibetsun.com/news/2009/03/08/dalai-lama-guard-recalls-leaders-dramatic-escape?fref=gc&dti=7021120691

We should do all we can to avoid war and weapons of killing, working someday to make this world free of all violence.

We must be creative and unrelenting in our effort to turn swords to ploughshares, and to build schools and hospitals rather than bombs.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shoka]

Hi everyone,

After reading the paper by Dr. Ford, I have to say he is really making the same point that is often made about nuclear disarmament; which is that it isn't something which can happen either quickly or if ever because we don't know what will happen. He links the points to a Buddhist point of view, reminding us to not think we know everything, or can be absolutely sure.

The basic argument goes that if we (being all super powers who have nuclear weapons) destroy them all today, then we don't know what will happen. How will we keep anyone else from building it? What if 10 years from now someone builds nuclear weapons, what will we do? The argument is pretty typical with this type of topic. The thought process being since everyone knows that you can make nuclear weapons, there will most likely be a time when someone will try to "sneak" and build another one. And when we will be on the back foot because we won't have ours, and MAD (mutually assured destruction) won't be in effect anymore.

Honestly, the paper is nothing new. I have read and heard the argument many many times. Based on the structure of the paper I feel more that Dr. Ford was really trying to poke at Buddhists who feel they must be against nuclear weapons, because he spends most of the paper building a case for why the vow doesn't tell us that we have to think one thing or another. But that it is a moral compass. And on top of the moral compass, he leans greatly on the importance of "not-knowing".

Dr. Ford says,

If we know that our position is wholly right and that those who disagree are wholly wrong, we are part of that problem.

This quote really sums up most of what Ford, I feel, is trying to convey. He is trying to have people keep their minds open. Just because you are Buddhist doesn't mean you are a liberal, or support nuclear disarmament, or etc. etc.

I do need to emphasize that my background is in political science so in reading his paper I am really doing it with that lens and base knowledge.

Now to the original article, there were a couple of interesting things in there. One being the following:

The other place where Buddhism has an impact for him? Ford said he hasn't formally meditated in "at least a couple years," but he believes Buddhism has allowed him to be more calm and centered during stressful days in the White House.

This was buried at almost the end of the article, but I feel it is important to understand how his practice affects him on a daily basis.

Additionally I feel that the article, and a couple others I read on the same topic, really emphasized and dramatized that he is a republican Buddhist. It really is a sensational article, which is ok because it hopefully helps people look at their own assumptions.

I would be interested to read his dissertation and see how he thinks the use of force is appropriate, but it is a long academic paper and based on this shorter writing I feel it would be the same reasons I have heard before.

But it is good to read, consider and weight opposing view points as they usually help to hold a mirror up for us and allow us to engage with our own beliefs and assumptions on a deeper level.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[Joyo]

We must be creative and unrelenting in our effort to turn swords to ploughshares, and to build schools and hospitals rather than bombs.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

"you may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one" --John Lennon

nine bows

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today