Zen Buddhism + Taoist Influence?

[Rakurei]

I often hear that Ch'an/Zen have Taoist influences, and one of the reasons it was sanctioned in China was that it could enrich Taoist thought. Maybe it's the Soto's schools focus on "just sitting", but I don't see the similarities between Zen and Taoism.

Any historians or scholars care to shed some light?

Gassho,

Tyler

ST/LAH

[Chishou]

I think its only natural for it to have been influenced by the culture its being practiced in.

From what little I know, its seems to have some influences.

I am planning on reading "The Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet" by Benjamin Hoff to see if there are any connections/similarities.


Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.

[aprapti]

I think its only natural for it to have been influenced by the culture its being practiced in.

From what little I know, its seems to have some influences.

I am planning on reading "The Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet" by Benjamin Hoff to see if there are any connections/similarities.


Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.

its a funny book, but maybe you better read : Ray Grigg, the tao of zen


Coos
std

[Jundo]

Hi Tyler,

A LONG RESPONSE, FOR CHINESE BUDDHIST HISTORY WONKS ONLY.

Yes, this is true ... there was also a great inter-influence among Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism as Buddhism moved into China and the Chinese tried to understand the Indian philosophical teachings of Buddhism in Taoist ways, often assigning Taoist terms to the translations from Sanskrit (such as the Buddha "Way"), and with general Chinese culture values and sensitivities.

As well, Confucian social forms and values had a great effect on the organization of Buddhist monasteries and such (the emphasis on Lineage for example). What is more, the same folks usually practiced all three in some way ... for example, many were first educated in Confucian family, then after becoming Buddhist monks might still dabble in Taoist medicine and such. So, I would go so far as to say that Zen is Indian Buddhism heavily influenced by Chinese sensibilities including Taoism and Confucianism.

On the other hand, the Taoist alchemy and emphasis on extending the human life span to become immortal is a bit of a different thing. Philosophical Taoism such as described in the Tao Te Ching did have a great influence on Zen Buddhism, but the search for the "fountain of youth", manipulating "Chi" and such aspects of Taoism generally did not. The latter is a very different aspect of Taoism from the philosophy of the Tao Te Ching.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_alchemy

Here is a paper, but I am only going to recommend the following for real Zen history wonks who are interested in the story of how Buddhism came from India to China, blended with Chinese philosophy and sensibilities (particularly Daoist, and a particular flavor of Daoism called Lao-Chuang), thereby giving rise to much of the Chan/Zen perspective we practice even today. The paper itself is not that long. However, even just the first 2 or 3 pages are worth a glance. It is hard to miss the commonality with the way the Zen Teachings are presented even now (especially in Soto Zen, even right in this Sangha), although the way of putting things has come to be in a more Buddhist package ... The blend between Buddhist thought and what is described in the following paragraphs resulted in a lovely offspring which became Chan/Zen ...

Chuang-Tzu And The Chinese Ancestry of Ch'an Buddhism
Livia Knaul
Journal of Chinese Philosophy
Vol.13 (1986)


In regarding the development of Ch'an Buddhism much emphasis has traditionally been placed on its Indian background. Of course, it has been recognized that the Indian sources passed through a process of translation and adaptation to the Chinese ... This tradition became the major vehicle for the translation of Buddhist concepts into Chinese thinking.

...

Mysticism as found in the Chuang-Tzu is based on
the assumption that the Tao, the Absolute, is always
here and there and everywhere. Man became separated
from the Tao as he developed consciousness, through
which he came to hate death and love life, and
constantly shifted between emotional and intellectual
extremes. To remedy this situation, rather than
making choices, he should identify with all, as all
is the Tao, and "make all things equal," forgetting
himself and the world by "sitting in oblivion".(3)
Once freed from the 'fetters and handcuffs' of
categorial thinking, he will mentally dissolve into
Chaos (hun-tun(a)),(4) after which there will be no
more right and wrong, no more death and life. Man
will then become fully at-one with the Tao and able
to enjoy everything just as it is. This is the true
freedom of man, the 'free and easy wandering" of the
first chapter of the Chuang-Tzu. The mind then can
roam through the universe in cosmic excursion, but it
is also perfectly suited to dealing with everyday
realities.(5) The true man is always one in what he
does, his mere presence benefits the age. He has a
human face, but is actually filled with the emptiness
of Heaven; acting like everyone else, he never gets
entangled.(6)
Systematized by Kuo Hsiang,the essential ideas of
Chuang-Tzu mysticism are organized into a
philosophical world-view. The Tao, the eternal
Absolute, which is characterized as changing on and
on without beginning or end, is called Self-so or
nature. ... But
consciousness causes him to love and hate and
discriminate, spoiling the original purity. In
realizing that he is bound by his perception, man can
attain a state of utmost accordance with life: by
emptying his mind and "sitting in oblivion" the state
of realization of nature within himself. This is the
interpretation Kuo Hsiang gives for the "free and
easy wandering" of the Chuang-Tzu. Mystical union,
the merging of one's mind with the Absolute in Chaos,
he expresses through the word ming(d) as opposed to
hsiang(e), to think in dualistic patterns. Both terms
were later used by Buddhists.
Furthermore, the Chuang-Tzu ideal of no-mind, wu-
hsin(f), of "keeping a free self in the midst of any
and all circumstances, to affirm the here and now
actively as one's own"(7), is elaborated by Kuo
Hsiang to encompass not only non-action, but also non-happiness,
non-reliance, non-knowledge, etc. These are ideal
states of mind developed through the complete denial
of their imperfect and impure counterparts in the
world. With no-mind, the true man, rather than
withdrawing into the wilderness, will be able to find
the place in society most appropriate for him.
Precisely because "he stopped being aware of beings,
he is able to enter the crowd". (Comm. ch. 6)
Fulfilling his social responsibilities to the utmost,
he realizes his given share of the universal truth.
As everything is the Tao, no task is too low to grant
fulfillment. An tasks are duties in the world and for
the good of society, which itself is but a part of
the cosmic process with which one should always be in
tune. This notion which mirrors Confucian concepts as
much as the ideal Taoist state of Great Peace is
contradictory to the Buddhist postulation that one
has to leave one's family and society in order to
realize oneself as a monk and as a true man.

Furthermore, the Chuang-Tzu ideal of no-mind, wu-
hsin(f), of "keeping a free self in the midst of any
and all circumstances, to affirm the here and now
actively as one's own"(7), is elaborated by Kuo
Hsiang to encompass not only non-action, but also non-happiness,
non-reliance, non-knowledge, etc. These are ideal
states of mind developed through the complete denial
of their imperfect and impure counterparts in the
world. With no-mind, the true man, rather than
withdrawing into the wilderness, will be able to find
the place in society most appropriate for him.
Precisely because "he stopped being aware of beings,
he is able to enter the crowd". (Comm. ch. 6)

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOCP/livia.htm

An interesting book on the topic is "Buddhism and Taoism Face to Face" by Christine Mollier. From its blurb: "Mollier does not simply assert that these traditions influenced once another; she reveals in breathtaking detail the wide array of techniques used by the Buddhists and Taoists as they appropriate and transformed the texts and icons of their rivals...".

http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-5307-9780824834111.aspx

Dogen was quite clear that Confucianism and Daoism are divergent from Buddhism, writing in Shobogenzo and elsewhere such comments as "Who among students of the Buddha-Dharma could fail to fathom Confucius and Laozi? [But] no student of [Confucius] and Laozi has ever fathomed the Buddha-Dharma". And yet, as discussed above, Confucianism and aspects of philosophical (not alchemical) Daoism certainly flavored and perfumed Indian Buddhism in the formation of the Chinese Mahayana and Zen. When Dogen organized the social decorum and hierarchy of his monastic rules, for example, he certain incorporated many Confucian values. His teachings are often flavored and perfumed by those same Mahayana perspectives, and he himself (when in the mood) would quote from Daoist writings when the mood struck him ... although using them to make a point within his own Teachings. The great translators and Soto Priests, Okumura and Leighton, make the point in footnote 67 here.

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=9nqqLwjgzQoC&pg=PA341&lpg=PA341&dq=dogen+daoism&source=bl&ots=Y6DzAosLNE&sig=ATGqmL4L_iQHW86wJo73qVbAlSI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u4JUU9r-NcXmkgXQoYG4Bg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=dogen%20daoism&f=false

The Dogenologist Steven Heine talks, for example, of how Taoist influences came to play a role in the "language playfulness" of the development of Koan culture which was so important to Dogen (for example, Dogen's Shobogenzo is page after page of Dogen's wordplay with the Koans and the liveliness of language. (Unfortunately, Steve Heine is one of those academics who sometimes resorts to a modernist form of literary criticism that makes the follow sentences sometimes as impenetrable as a Koan, but the point is clear enough. Please look at pages 56-57 here).

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=ZmIOZQ59Z6gC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=dogen+taoist&source=bl&ots=ETA1Bi7g3V&sig=T32aStM9toG2jlJsNF_Wb6vJoVY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=n4hUU53ZJ4jHkAW_uYCoAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=dogen%20taoist&f=false

But it is true that Taoism is not Zen, even though maybe the philosophical elements of Taoism can be found in the DNA of Zen here and there. Another great Dogenologist, Hee-Jin Kim, points out one difference in the top paragraph of page 90 here ...

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=WoX4urtEUJkC&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=dogen+taoism&source=bl&ots=-zQYG-caBF&sig=PaZ31GnFqhbywVP2QJGRXoJT2h4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_4dUU4OdEM3AkQWX34CgDQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=taoism&f=false

Finally ...

Some folks ask me from time to time if it matters that Buddhism changed over time as it encountered different cultures and times. Yes, Buddhism has evolved over the years, comes in many flavors, and many of the flavors and evolutions are good. I usually say this ...

- "Zen" pretty much developed in China around the 6th Century when Indian Buddhism met Chinese culture and sensibilities, and then kept developing and evolving right to today. It moved on to Japan and Korea, changed a bit more, and now to the West. It is the same, but different, different but the same in many ways. It is not exactly what and how the historical Buddha taught. In fact, in some ways it is an improvement, with the Buddha something like our "Henry Ford" or the "Wright Brothers"! (At least we think so. That is one reason that Mahayana Buddhists, the "Great Vehicle", for thousands of years have been calling all that Indian stuff "the Lessor vehicle" ... although no longer PC to do ... and why Zen folks have implied that their way was a "Special Transmission" different from all that the historical Buddha taught other folks who needed their Buddhism in other packages.).

- Zen is Ultimately Timeless. Truly, if one encounters Enlightenment right here, right now, on one's Zafu, then we might say all the Buddhas and Ancestors are "Real" beyond small human ideas of "true or false", and all the Buddhas and Ancestors are sitting on the Zafu as you are sitting. If one pierces the Wisdom manifested in a Koan story, it does not matter that the event depicted never actually took place, for one is manifesting the Wisdom in the Koan even if written by someone simply to depict that Wisdom.

However, the Heart of the Buddha's teachings ... the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Non-Self, Non-Attachment, the Middle Way, etc. etc., ... All are here now as much as there then!! When we are sitting a moment of Zazen ... perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... piercing Dukkha, attaining non-self, non-attached ... then there is not the slightest gap between each of us and the Buddha.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[aprapti]

Thanks, Jundo.


Coos
std

[Myoku]

Disclaimer: I have no solid academic background on either the teachings of the tao or buddhism

I think the similarities are many, when you look at the fundamental teachings about the tao, mainly those of Zhuangzi and (contemporary) Theo Fischer you find
- there is no self, everything is changing all time
- doing by non-doing
- accepting life as it comes to you
- non-striving, non fighting
- non thinking
- living by experience not by belief
- seeing the peace and calm behind even the most turbulent situation
and many more. Most important: Zhuangzi also says that _it_ cannot be said, named or explained. So forget all I just said

Purely subjective I would go as far as saying the teaching of the tao _is_ the teaching of zen minus liturgy and minus the emphasis of longer sitting. I'm pretty aware there are fancy taoist groups and very "religious" elements in some so-called-taoist teachings as well, however when focussing on Zhuangzi and people who carry on his tradition there is a large overlapping to zen (in particular soto).

I guess its safe to say that no one needs to study the tao when one studies zen, but inevitably you will do so as the wise man and woman of all time always found the same truth.

Gassho
Myoku
sat today

[Ryudo]

I think its only natural for it to have been influenced by the culture its being practiced in.

From what little I know, its seems to have some influences.

I am planning on reading "The Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet" by Benjamin Hoff to see if there are any connections/similarities.


Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.

The Tao of Pooh is so wonderfully simple. I really recommend it.

Gassho
Marcus
SatToday/LAH

[Kyonin]

Thank you for the long answer, Jundo.

This is a topic I have growing interest and will study more. It's fascinating!

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Rev R]

This discussion sent me down a rabbit-hole that I have not visited in some time. I have a thought regarding the “concept-matching” method of translation that could be a valid hypothesis, but is more likely an interesting alternative history narrative. Take from that what you will.

On with the show…

Jundo mentioned “concept-matching” in his post. While there is an argument against this, the idea seems to be common enough to be the current prevailing wisdom on the subject. There is a line of thinking that takes “concept-matching” a step beyond and suggests that a school had developed based on this interpretation.

Whether a school or just a method of translation, “concept-matching” fell out of favor with the second wave of translation and Kumarajiva’s efforts in the early 5th century CE. The early 5th century is also the accepted time of activity for a fella you may have heard of, Bodhidharma. Many of Bodhidharma’s exploits are clearly mythological, but the character has two important traits. First, he hailed from India. Second he is part of a direct apostolic succession beginning with Gautama Buddha himself.

The narrative that develops from this is that there was a “concept-matching” school and this school developed the character of Bodhidharma to provide an Indian provenance to their teaching. “Concept-matching” disappeared but the ideas developed through it survived and evolved into the Zen we know today.

Again, probably not true, but still a fun bedtime story.

~Rodney

[Jundo]

This discussion sent me down a rabbit-hole that I have not visited in some time. I have a thought regarding the “concept-matching” method of translation that could be a valid hypothesis, but is more likely an interesting alternative history narrative. Take from that what you will.

On with the show…

Jundo mentioned “concept-matching” in his post. While there is an argument against this, the idea seems to be common enough to be the current prevailing wisdom on the subject. There is a line of thinking that takes “concept-matching” a step beyond and suggests that a school had developed based on this interpretation.

Whether a school or just a method of translation, “concept-matching” fell out of favor with the second wave of translation and Kumarajiva’s efforts in the early 5th century CE. The early 5th century is also the accepted time of activity for a fella you may have heard of, Bodhidharma. Many of Bodhidharma’s exploits are clearly mythological, but the character has two important traits. First, he hailed from India. Second he is part of a direct apostolic succession beginning with Gautama Buddha himself.

The narrative that develops from this is that there was a “concept-matching” school and this school developed the character of Bodhidharma to provide an Indian provenance to their teaching. “Concept-matching” disappeared but the ideas developed through it survived and evolved into the Zen we know today.

Again, probably not true, but still a fun bedtime story.

~Rodney

A Koan: Why did the Master [Bodhidharma] come from the West? What is the the concept which cannot be matched?

Some history of the development of the Bodhidharma story in the early centuries ...

Bodhidharma’s legend continued to develop with the
Lidai fabaoji (c. 774), the Baolin (801), and the Zutang ji
(Kor., Chodangjip, 952) [biographical collections], and reached its classical stage in
1004 with the Jingde chuangdeng lu. In the process, it borrowed
features from other popular Buddhist or Daoist figures
such as Baozhi or Fuxi (alias Fu Dashi, “Fu the
Mahāsattva,” 497–569, considered an incarnation of
Maitreya). But its main aspects were already fixed at the beginning
of the eighth century. For example, the Chuan fabao
ji contains the following account concerning Bodhidharma’s
“deliverance from the corpse” (a typical Daoist practice): On
the day of his death, he was met in the Pamir Mountains by
Songyun, a Northern Wei emissary on his way back from
India. After his arrival in China, Songyun told Bodhidharma’s
disciples of his encounter. The disciples, opening their
master’s grave, found it empty except for a single straw sandal.
Bodhidharma returning to his home in the western regions
on one sandal has become a standard motif in Chan
iconography.

https://terebess.hu/zen/bodhidharma-eng.html

Buddhist Historian Alan Cole finds a few more influences, for example, in the "Two Entrances and Four Practices," a writing long associated with Bodhidharma (and which historians now believe may be the only one either actually written by Bodhidharma or someone close to Bodhidharma). Bottom of page 33 and page 34 here ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=EbswDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=Bodhidharma+daoist+sage&source=bl&ots=Gh1QpU7NCP&sig=MYSKY3w6sYRSR1lodJfhu3_E-xA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbyNGSgMTWAhVKopQKHbpLB0MQ6AEIQjAI#v=onepage&q=Bodhidharma%20daoist%20sage&f=false

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - We have one statue of Bodhidharma carrying his shoe, surfing on a reed, in our Zendo in Tsukuba, in a corner for the Ancestors ... something like this ...

[Rev R]

Bloody koans...argle bargle! Thanks for the info, Jundo.

Forgive the further thread hijacking, but where does one obtain a statue like that?

~Rodney

[Jundo]

Bloody koans...argle bargle! Thanks for the info, Jundo.

Forgive the further thread hijacking, but where does one obtain a statue like that?

~Rodney

Oh, I found ours (actually, two) in a second hand store in Japan. However I know another secret source that only Zen Masters and Taoist Sages know ...

Ebay.

Actually, I see a few here with the shoe thing. All price ranges ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chinese-Buddhism-Bronze-Arhat-Damo-Bodhidharma-Dharma-Buddha-Statue-Figurine-/122711421169?hash=item1c922bb0f1:g:P1MAAOSwB-1YncbO

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=statue+bodhidharma&_sop=15

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Seishin]

Jundo

Should you be encouraging Ebay trawling during Ango ? FWIW Having nearly memorized The Heart Sutra as additional Ango commitment and I found a wonderful Avalokiteshvara statue 50cm tall on Ebay auction found it jumped over £100 from £34 today with just a few hours to go. Out of my league now but guess hungry ghosts need putting to bed for now.

STEIZ

[Jundo]

Jundo

Should you be encouraging Ebay trawling during Ango ? FWIW Having nearly memorized The Heart Sutra as additional Ango commitment and I found a wonderful Avalokiteshvara statue 50cm tall on Ebay auction found it jumped over £100 from £34 today with just a few hours to go. Out of my league now but guess hungry ghosts need putting to bed for now.

STEIZ

The True Avalokiteshvara and Bodhidharma have no price and don't take credit cards.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH