Holiness?

[Jishin]

Thank you for sharing this, Doshin. This song still touches my soul as well, as I see god in nature. Interesting, as I side more with Darwin as well, and I am also married to a Christian. We rarely discuss religion or God either. I don't mean this in any disrespectful way, but I spend hours sitting on my arse, chanting metta, and studying about emptiness so who am I to judge him or anyone else for being a Christian, or whatever path people choose to follow. =)

(I had a good Canada Day, btw, thank you very much )

Many bows to all paths/religions that bring people comfort and help them to live a life of compassion.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

Paternal side is Mormon. Maternal is Jewish. First wife was catholic. Forever wife is Church of Christ and so are in laws. Children are Church of Christ. Jundo told me one time that I maybe a JuBu. Apparently there is such a thing. 30% of western buddhists have a Jewish background. If asked, I may say I believe in Christ, in God, in Buddha, in atheism, in JuBus or BuJu or whatever is most appropriate for the occasion as I am all of these things. I prefer JuBu best though.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

[Jundo]

In my experience, only good things can come from the no-mind state because we are all good when the mind is still. However, I'm no teacher like you, Jundo.
In a no mind state, helping is automatic, being selfless is automatic. Some people say that we operate from the higher mind but in Soto Zen, we don't categorise, isn't it?

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST/LAH.

Hi Geerish,

I would like to say that, in 30 years of walking this Path, I had come to believe so. I believe it is a story told in many old books making a rather romantic or idealized presentation of Zen and related traditions (DT Sukuzi, not be be confused with Shunryu Suzuki, is now sometimes criticized for painting such a romantic and idealized image in many of his books), but I have seen no living evidence of this nor does it makes sense to me. I believe that such claims are found in our legends and religious tenets, but not in actuality. We take our long dead ancestors and, once dead, make hagiographical claims for their perfection in mind and behavior. We make theoretical or fantastic descriptions in Sutra Books about the working of Buddha Mind, but such is largely the product of author imagination.

Human beings, while alive, are creatures of flesh and brain, and that brain contains tendencies to act with excess desire, anger and divisive thinking that we must always be on alert for. We can never escape the brain while alive. We we access "no-mind", however, I do not believe that it alone automatically results in the opposites such as generosity, love and harmony. What is does, in my experience, is point us in the direction where such can be nurtured precisely because we are freer ... although never completely free ... of the brain's drives toward excess desire, anger and division. I have seen too many cases where meditation alone, without the Precepts to guide and form its shape and direction, can result in amorality or (even with the Precepts sometimes) all manner of covers for bad behavior. The many "enlightened" gurus and Buddhist Teachers ... from Trungpa to Eido Shimano to Yasutani to many others ... who sometimes acted very badly show what can happen if one relies too much only on one's experience of "no mind."

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiypaURysz4

What a simply beautiful song and, if one put a couple of Jewish themed verses in there, one might explain why there are so many folks of Jewish heritage in Zen too.

I also come from a mixed background ... mother Jewish but very lose and liberal, father a "religion is the opiate of the people" socialist, uncles and cousins who became very Orthodox Jews (and some who stopped talking to me, and refused to come to my wedding etc., for that reason), sister married and became Catholic ... even my marriage is "mixed" because her parents are Nichiren Buddhists (very different from Zen, originally the evangelical Baptists of Buddhism, although now most Japanese would be hard pressed to tell you the actual tenets of the particular school of Buddhism their family belongs to, mix in much Shinto etc., and mostly contact Buddhism simply for funerals and ancestor worship).

But as Joyo says so beautifully ...

Many bows to all paths/religions that bring people comfort and help them to live a life of compassion.

Lovely.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

I wanted to share that I have read this thread and gained perspectives that I appreciate. I share, because for the last half Century I have thought little about gods or religion but I listened to what each has said and may yet be said. And yet I have been married to an Orthodox Christian (who accepts, appreciates my paradigm and we seldom discuss theism...probably becasue she saw my eyes glaze over too many times so many years ago) for 37 years. In addition my first 17 years on this earth were in and out of Churches of many denominations to understand what today I feel is the unexplainable. So I think little of it. However, I see many religions and philosophies that share a common core set of values of how a social animal can live together. To my mind an evolutionary stragegy for survival...but that is me.

A year or so ago Joyo shared a song here or Face Book, somewhere . One that resonated deeply and I shared that with Joyo. It 'felt" right for me so I told my kids to play it at my death along with food and drink. To rejoice, even though some/many will be sad and concerned for my soul that I will not join them somewhere else. I want them to understand that I saw life 'now" as holy and that I will I continue on within that which has so enriched me. I share here not to counter, convert or convince but to express my life... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiypaURysz4 becasue this thread started with a word that has a place in my existence.

And I sit with all no matter our differences because it seems to me that during that time we are one together....

BTW, if my meandering is way off on the intent here just understand that happens alot with me and enjoy the tune




(Thanks again Joyo and I hope you had a great Canadian Day)


Gassho
Doshin
st/LAH

Wonderful Doshin!

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Suuko]

Hi Geerish,

I would like to say that, in 30 years of walking this Path, I had come to believe so. I believe it is a story told in many old books making a rather romantic or idealized presentation of Zen and related traditions (DT Sukuzi, not be be confused with Shunryu Suzuki, is now sometimes criticized for painting such a romantic and idealized image in many of his books), but I have seen no living evidence of this nor does it makes sense to me. I believe that such claims are found in our legends and religious tenets, but not in actuality. We take our long dead ancestors and, once dead, make hagiographical claims for their perfection in mind and behavior. We make theoretical or fantastic descriptions in Sutra Books about the working of Buddha Mind, but such is largely the product of author imagination.

Human beings, while alive, are creatures of flesh and brain, and that brain contains tendencies to act with excess desire, anger and divisive thinking that we must always be on alert for. We can never escape the brain while alive. We we access "no-mind", however, I do not believe that it alone automatically results in the opposites such as generosity, love and harmony. What is does, in my experience, is point us in the direction where such can be nurtured precisely because we are freer ... although never completely free ... of the brain's drives toward excess desire, anger and division. I have seen too many cases where meditation alone, without the Precepts to guide and form its shape and direction, can result in amorality or (even with the Precepts sometimes) all manner of covers for bad behavior. The many "enlightened" gurus and Buddhist Teachers ... from Trungpa to Eido Shimano to Yasutani to many others ... who sometimes acted very badly show what can happen if one relies too much only on one's experience of "no mind."

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Hi Jundo,

I see what you are saying. There's a good number of masters who abused the influence they had on their devotees. Especially, in practices where one has to surrender completely to the master. However, if we are using guidelines and notion of right or wrong, are we not programming the self and fabricating one? Isn't buddha nature something we all have at the start but which gets clouded by thoughts, desires and beliefs?

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST/LAH

[Doshin]

Many bows to all paths/religions that bring people comfort and help them to live a life of compassion.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

Yes!



Doshin
st/LAH

[Jundo]

In a no mind state, helping is automatic, being selfless is automatic. ...

Isn't buddha nature something we all have at the start but which gets clouded by thoughts, desires and beliefs?

Oh, yes!

But here is my feeling on this ...

... (and, please, Geerish, do Sit and Practice yourself and find for yourself "Buddha Nature". Do not be tied up or limited by my words if you disagree) ...

Buddha Nature reveals a truth about us and all things, always present, whereby there is no anger or killing or other violence possible (because no you and no me separate, so no doer and no done), nothing to steal or crave (for no separate things, thus no need or lack) . This is a Peaceful and Whole realm that, while right here, is often hidden by our divided thinking and the resulting selfishness, anger and frustration that we feel when our brains only see this samsaric world of separation.

In our Bodhisattva Vows, we "save the sentient beings" by letting the separate beings also experience such Fact. That is why it is sometimes said by Zen and other Mahayana Teachers that "we 'save the sentient beings' ultimately by showing them that, from the startless start, there were never truly any 'sentient beings' in need of saving, nor any lack to fill).

However, when you and I day to day must live in this samsaric world of "me and you", mine and yours, lack and need, win and lose etc. etc., things are a bit complicated. I do not feel that realizing the above Truth, even profoundly, means that we are necessarily going to live in this world free of the selfishness of our "little self." Until we are dead (and become what the Buddhists called "pari-nirvana' which is only the realm of "no me and you"), we are still people with human bodies, brains wired for selfish drives and instincts, fears, thoughts of past and future, judgments and divided ideas we need to survive, jealousies and all the rest of the human condition. Samsara.

Thus, Dogen (although most Zen teachers actually said about the same if you look carefully at their words and recommendations) spoke of "Practice-Enlightenment." The above realization of "no me-ness" helps avoid the selfishness and all the rest, but it is far from "automatic" by that alone in this world of "me-ness". (I bet a lot of the Rabbis and Christian mystics in the OP to this thread knew this too). No, such realization frees the heart of much of the selfishness, and the excess desire, anger and frustration, fears and judgments, divided thinking ... but it is not automatic and, moreover, is not really helpful when we have to get up and live in this complicated world. (Small example: If your loved one dies or is injured in a terrible accident or crime ... realizing Buddha Nature may help one see beyond mere loss or death, it may help you forgive in one aspect, it may help free one of anger, it may allow one a sense Peace and no Loss ... but the human side may still cry in grief and ask why and feel some resentment and great loss. The two ways of seeing together produce great Wisdom and Compassion, but I would never want to give up either way of experiencing such an event. I want to live by Buddha Nature, but I also cherish my humanity. I want Peace, yet I want to cry ... I want to know Peace and yet cry with my broken heart at once.)

Realization will tend to make us more loving, more generous, more forgiving, more accepting, less fearful, less frustrated or angry and all the rest ... but, so long as we are in this world of Samsara, we are still humans who sometimes feel not like that.

So, Practice-Enlightenment is not an "automatic," but a realization (meaning, "to feel and understand in the bones") and a realization (meaning, "to make it real in each choice by our words, thoughts and acts") of Buddha Nature living in this complicated world. It does not make us saints or robots (perhaps somewhere down the road, 100000 lives from now when we are all perfect golden Buddhas, but not here in this life, in the muddy trenches of the front lines of this life for now). Now, we must simply realize-realize Buddha Nature and do our best.

That is my view. Please find your own Buddha Nature.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jakuden]

Oh, yes!

But here is my feeling on this ...

... (and, please, Geerish, do Sit and Practice yourself and find for yourself "Buddha Nature". Do not be hamstrung or limited by my words if you disagree) ...

Buddha Nature reveals a truth about us and all things, always present, whereby there is no anger or killing or other violence possible (because no you and no me separate, so no doer and no done), nothing to steal or crave (for no separate things, thus no need or lack) . This is a Peaceful and Whole realm that, while right here, is often hidden by our divided thinking and the resulting selfishness, anger and frustration that we feel when our brains only see this samsaric world of separation.

In our Bodhisattva Vows, we "save the sentient beings" by letting the separate beings also experience such Fact. That is why it is sometimes said by Zen and other Mahayana Teachers that "we 'save the sentient beings' ultimately by showing them that, from the startless start, there were never truly any 'sentient beings' in need of saving, nor any lack to fill).

However, when you and I day to day must live in this samsaric world of "me and you", mine and yours, lack and need, win and lose etc. etc., things are a bit complicated. I do not feel that realizing the above Truth, even profoundly, means that we are necessarily going to live in this world free of the selfishness of our "little self." Until we are dead (and become what the Buddhists called "pari-nirvana' which is only the realm of "no me and you"), we are still people with human bodies, brains wired for selfish drives and instincts, fears, thoughts of past and future, judgments and divided ideas we need to survive, jealousies and all the rest of the human condition. Samsara.

Thus, Dogen (although most Zen teachers actually said about the same if you look carefully at their words and recommendations) spoke of "Practice-Enlightenment." The above realization of "no me-ness" helps avoid the selfishness and all the rest, but it is far from "automatic" by that alone in this world of "me-ness". (I bet a lot of the Rabbis and Christian mystics in the OP to this thread realized this too). No, such realization frees the heart of much of the selfishness, and the excess desire, anger and frustration, fears and judgments, divided thinking ... but it is not automatic and, moreover, is not really helpful when we have to get up and live in this complicated world. (Small example: If your loved one dies or is injured in a terrible accident or crime ... realizing Buddha Nature may help one see beyond mere loss or death, it may help you forgive in one aspect, it may help free one of anger, it may allow one a sense Peace and no Loss ... but the human side may still cry in grief and ask why and feel some resentment and great loss. The two ways of seeing together produce great Wisdom and Compassion, but I would never want to give up either way of experiencing such an event. I want by Buddha Nature, but I also cherish my humanity. I want Peace, yet I want to cry ... I want to know Peace and yet cry with my broken heart at once.)

Realization will tend to make us more loving, more generous, more forgiving, more accepting, less fearful, less frustrated or angry and all the rest ... but, so long as we are in this world of Samsara, we are still humans who sometimes feel not like that.

So, Practice-Enlightenment is not an "automatic," but a realization (meaning, "to feel and understand in the bones") and a realization (meaning, "to make it real in each choice by our words, thoughts and acts") of Buddha Nature living in this complicated world. It does not make us saints or robots (perhaps somewhere down the road, 100000 lives from now when we are all perfect golden Buddhas, but not here in this life, in the muddy trenches of the front lines of this life for now). Now, we must simply realize Buddha Nature and do our best.

That is my view. Please find your own Buddha Nature.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Thank you Jundo. [emoji120]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Oh, yes!

But here is my feeling on this ...

... (and, please, Geerish, do Sit and Practice yourself and find for yourself "Buddha Nature". Do not be tied up or limited by my words if you disagree) ...

Buddha Nature reveals a truth about us and all things, always present, whereby there is no anger or killing or other violence possible (because no you and no me separate, so no doer and no done), nothing to steal or crave (for no separate things, thus no need or lack) . This is a Peaceful and Whole realm that, while right here, is often hidden by our divided thinking and the resulting selfishness, anger and frustration that we feel when our brains only see this samsaric world of separation.

In our Bodhisattva Vows, we "save the sentient beings" by letting the separate beings also experience such Fact. That is why it is sometimes said by Zen and other Mahayana Teachers that "we 'save the sentient beings' ultimately by showing them that, from the startless start, there were never truly any 'sentient beings' in need of saving, nor any lack to fill).

However, when you and I day to day must live in this samsaric world of "me and you", mine and yours, lack and need, win and lose etc. etc., things are a bit complicated. I do not feel that realizing the above Truth, even profoundly, means that we are necessarily going to live in this world free of the selfishness of our "little self." Until we are dead (and become what the Buddhists called "pari-nirvana' which is only the realm of "no me and you"), we are still people with human bodies, brains wired for selfish drives and instincts, fears, thoughts of past and future, judgments and divided ideas we need to survive, jealousies and all the rest of the human condition. Samsara.

Thus, Dogen (although most Zen teachers actually said about the same if you look carefully at their words and recommendations) spoke of "Practice-Enlightenment." The above realization of "no me-ness" helps avoid the selfishness and all the rest, but it is far from "automatic" by that alone in this world of "me-ness". (I bet a lot of the Rabbis and Christian mystics in the OP to this thread realized this too). No, such realization frees the heart of much of the selfishness, and the excess desire, anger and frustration, fears and judgments, divided thinking ... but it is not automatic and, moreover, is not really helpful when we have to get up and live in this complicated world. (Small example: If your loved one dies or is injured in a terrible accident or crime ... realizing Buddha Nature may help one see beyond mere loss or death, it may help you forgive in one aspect, it may help free one of anger, it may allow one a sense Peace and no Loss ... but the human side may still cry in grief and ask why and feel some resentment and great loss. The two ways of seeing together produce great Wisdom and Compassion, but I would never want to give up either way of experiencing such an event. I want by Buddha Nature, but I also cherish my humanity. I want Peace, yet I want to cry ... I want to know Peace and yet cry with my broken heart at once.)

Realization will tend to make us more loving, more generous, more forgiving, more accepting, less fearful, less frustrated or angry and all the rest ... but, so long as we are in this world of Samsara, we are still humans who sometimes feel not like that.

So, Practice-Enlightenment is not an "automatic," but a realization (meaning, "to feel and understand in the bones") and a realization (meaning, "to make it real in each choice by our words, thoughts and acts") of Buddha Nature living in this complicated world. It does not make us saints or robots (perhaps somewhere down the road, 100000 lives from now when we are all perfect golden Buddhas, but not here in this life, in the muddy trenches of the front lines of this life for now). Now, we must simply realize Buddha Nature and do our best.

That is my view. Please find your own Buddha Nature.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Agreed, this is a wonderful expression. Thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Getchi]

So it has been said, holiness is not what enters the mouth, but what comes forth from it.


Sattoday
Lay

Geoff.

[Suuko]

Oh, yes!

But here is my feeling on this ...

... (and, please, Geerish, do Sit and Practice yourself and find for yourself "Buddha Nature". Do not be tied up or limited by my words if you disagree) ...

Buddha Nature reveals a truth about us and all things, always present, whereby there is no anger or killing or other violence possible (because no you and no me separate, so no doer and no done), nothing to steal or crave (for no separate things, thus no need or lack) . This is a Peaceful and Whole realm that, while right here, is often hidden by our divided thinking and the resulting selfishness, anger and frustration that we feel when our brains only see this samsaric world of separation.

In our Bodhisattva Vows, we "save the sentient beings" by letting the separate beings also experience such Fact. That is why it is sometimes said by Zen and other Mahayana Teachers that "we 'save the sentient beings' ultimately by showing them that, from the startless start, there were never truly any 'sentient beings' in need of saving, nor any lack to fill).

However, when you and I day to day must live in this samsaric world of "me and you", mine and yours, lack and need, win and lose etc. etc., things are a bit complicated. I do not feel that realizing the above Truth, even profoundly, means that we are necessarily going to live in this world free of the selfishness of our "little self." Until we are dead (and become what the Buddhists called "pari-nirvana' which is only the realm of "no me and you"), we are still people with human bodies, brains wired for selfish drives and instincts, fears, thoughts of past and future, judgments and divided ideas we need to survive, jealousies and all the rest of the human condition. Samsara.

Thus, Dogen (although most Zen teachers actually said about the same if you look carefully at their words and recommendations) spoke of "Practice-Enlightenment." The above realization of "no me-ness" helps avoid the selfishness and all the rest, but it is far from "automatic" by that alone in this world of "me-ness". (I bet a lot of the Rabbis and Christian mystics in the OP to this thread knew this too). No, such realization frees the heart of much of the selfishness, and the excess desire, anger and frustration, fears and judgments, divided thinking ... but it is not automatic and, moreover, is not really helpful when we have to get up and live in this complicated world. (Small example: If your loved one dies or is injured in a terrible accident or crime ... realizing Buddha Nature may help one see beyond mere loss or death, it may help you forgive in one aspect, it may help free one of anger, it may allow one a sense Peace and no Loss ... but the human side may still cry in grief and ask why and feel some resentment and great loss. The two ways of seeing together produce great Wisdom and Compassion, but I would never want to give up either way of experiencing such an event. I want to live by Buddha Nature, but I also cherish my humanity. I want Peace, yet I want to cry ... I want to know Peace and yet cry with my broken heart at once.)

Realization will tend to make us more loving, more generous, more forgiving, more accepting, less fearful, less frustrated or angry and all the rest ... but, so long as we are in this world of Samsara, we are still humans who sometimes feel not like that.

So, Practice-Enlightenment is not an "automatic," but a realization (meaning, "to feel and understand in the bones") and a realization (meaning, "to make it real in each choice by our words, thoughts and acts") of Buddha Nature living in this complicated world. It does not make us saints or robots (perhaps somewhere down the road, 100000 lives from now when we are all perfect golden Buddhas, but not here in this life, in the muddy trenches of the front lines of this life for now). Now, we must simply realize-realize Buddha Nature and do our best.

That is my view. Please find your own Buddha Nature.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Hi Jundo,

I carried this question in my heart for a really Long time. Reading about Master Dogen showed me some light and your description just dropped the blindfold.

Gassho to treeleaf,
ST/LAH,
Geerish.

[Kyonin]

Buddha nature pervades the whole universe!

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAN

[Byokan]

wow. Thank you Jundo.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Getchi]

Thank you again Jundo, the more I learn the more I realize that attitude is so important.

As for holiness, I recall Nishijima Roshi writing that the "shisho" (transmission certificate) is only clothes and ink and so can not hold religious value, but that Buddhism is a realistic faith and so value is found in many physical traditions".

I understathis as the ink and silk are empty of inherent power or value, instead it is the faith we feel upon seeing these things that has any value at all,and even that is only as a means to encourage faith in zen practice.

Gassho
Sattoday/LAH

Geoff.