Holiness?

[Liang]

Zenmei,
I'm sorry if I came off as not willing to talk about it. It comes from a deep respect for you all and for the teachings of the zendo. I think dialogue is really important and as fellow mystics we have a lot of common ground. I'll PM you or start another thread if you all really want. But argument for argument's sake is a waste of typing. But I'll message you.
Thanks!

[Joyo]

I am happy for you to have found your path, Fred in regards to being a theist and a Zen practitioner. This world can be so cruel and difficult, it's good to find a spiritual practice that can help along the way.

I don't think you need to explain or respond to why you believe in God. Treeleaf is very inclusive, and you are not the only one who has a belief in God here.

For me, I take comfort in the thought that God is everywhere, the words of Jesus can be appreciated and practiced (even without being a Christian). It's unfortunate that, as you said, silly human religions have caused such division and hatred. Personally, I don't think Jesus would be interested in debating or partaking in any of that.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Zenmei]

I just mean I hope you feel welcome to share here, and if it is possible for a theist and a non-theist to have a productive conversation online, this is the place.

Gassho, Zenmei
#sat

[Meian]

Hello Fred,

I studied Judaism privately for years and I also took some classes (almost converted several years ago). Judaism always fascinated me on so many levels, and I'm still on many Jewish lists but not much time to read. I used to read a lot at the Chabad website as I found the stories fascinating, and I enjoyed Chasidic mysticism as I understood it. It was not as complicated (or loaded) for me as other denominations were.

I enjoyed your post - thank you for the memories. I can't conceptualize the understanding, but have had a similar sense, and never quite got past that feeling of a "reaching out." Still sorting it. Since I have studied both Judaism and Islam extensively, I cannot eat pork with a clear conscience, so I generally avoid all pig as a matter of conscience (as it is not considered kosher or halal). But this is just me, I know I am strange.

Gassho/Shalom
Kim
St

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[Risho]

Zen has really shaped my belief in God. Personally I think we are absolutely sacred and holy; our lives are absolutely miraculous. I mean all that is involved in our experience is insane to think about. But our holiness has nothing to do with our "selves"; its what we are, if that makes any sense.

so it isnt by actions that we are holy, but its that we align our actions toward what we are. ok i totally stole that but this practice has helped me also feel that; spoiler alert: i fail at it so much, i dont like talking about it but its the aim or vow lol

when i step back and think about how amazing this is i feel simultaneously awestruck at how i can find things to complain about.

gassho

risho
-sattoday

[Jishin]

Holiness?

IMG_0087.JPGIMG_0088.JPG

[emoji2]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

[Liang]

Jishin,

They say truth is stranger than fiction. In Genesis 8:20, Noah immediately after flood with two of every animal sacrifices each clean animal to the Lord. 2 - 1 = extinction, opps!
Just one of many silliness to a literal reading of the Bible.

[Jundo]

Vast emptiness, no holiness.

If we live beyond duality, there's no holy or unholy. Just like the mud feeds the lotus which blossoms the flower.

Gassho,
ST, LAH.

That aspect of Zen alone can lead to amoral behavior. It can be the attitude that "there is ultimately no one to kill or be killed, so okay to kill."

There are Precepts and definite Prescriptions on what is right an wrong. We avoid to kill sentient beings, but as we recently discussed, the issue of meat eating has not been always so clear in Buddhism.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15380-The-First-Precept-and-Eating-Meat/page2

I'm assuming it would be okay to join in silent zazen with you all while wearing tefflin and Tallit on a hangout sometime? I think that would be cool. I'm not supposed to talk with Tefflin on anyways, but have my thoughts focused on prayer. But if it would bother anyone you all can let me know.

I would ask that you be sitting Shikantaza when sitting with us, no matter what you wear. That means neither picking God up nor putting Him/Her/It down, neither thinking about God nor intentionally thinking about anything. Shikantaza itself is the prayer Realized, is Buddha God and Heaven sitting, so I would ask that you not be praying during that time.

Of course, before or after Sitting, on one's own, one may pray or think of all things. But when sitting Shikantaza in our Zendo, there is only sitting Shikantaza.

If there is a God (and I take no stand on that, only a sit on that ), Just Sitting is the closest I believe that one can come ... because how does one come to that when never goes?

I'm sorry if I came off as not willing to talk about it. It comes from a deep respect for you all and for the teachings of the zendo. I think dialogue is really important and as fellow mystics we have a lot of common ground. I'll PM you or start another thread if you all really want. But argument for argument's sake is a waste of typing. But I'll message you.

I think here, amid the boundless internet where people can share and discuss all topics, we stay pretty centered on Soto Zen Buddhism. One does not come to swimming school to play tennis. The philosophical questions are lovely, but we put them down and sit, staying focused on the way of Practice here.

We can talk about God to some extent, but the basic point is this:

I believe that all the great Wisdom Traditions of the universe come down to the same Wordless Heart. Nonetheless, swimming is not tennis, Here, we swim.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Just to clarify my view on this, I just wrote the following to Liang ...

-------------

My reason is just that I don't want to present too many approaches at once, and I want to focus on training with shikantaza.

Comparative religion is good, and many people mix and match. The one aspect about Shikantaza though is that, for the time of practicing Shikantaza, there is only that ... go deeplessly deep. Some folks turn "comparative" into cafeteria shopping, without going deep into this just one thing.

I fully support going to Mosque or Church or Synagogue or to a Richard Dawkins atheists meeting before or after Shikantaza if that is helpful to folks, and one can chant to Buddha or Allah or Jehovah or nothing at all before or after getting up from the cushion ... but when we practice Shikantaza, there is Shikantaza.

Why?

People don't know how to just sit and need nothing else.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Liang]

Thank you to everyone for their practice.

[Suuko]

That aspect of Zen alone can lead to amoral behavior. It can be the attitude that "there is ultimately no one to kill or be killed, so okay to kill."

There are Precepts and definite Prescriptions on what is right an wrong. We avoid to kill sentient beings, but as we recently discussed, the issue of meat eating has not been always so clear in Buddhism.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15380-The-First-Precept-and-Eating-Meat/page2

In my experience, only good things can come from the no-mind state because we are all good when the mind is still. However, I'm no teacher like you, Jundo.
In a no mind state, helping is automatic, being selfless is automatic. Some people say that we operate from the higher mind but in Soto Zen, we don't categorise, isn't it?

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST/LAH.

[Jishin]

Holiness?

In my experience, only good things can come from the no-mind state because we are all good when the mind is still. However, I'm no teacher like you, Jundo.
In a no mind state, helping is automatic, being selfless is automatic. Some people say that we operate from the higher mind but in Soto Zen, we don't categorise, isn't it?

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST/LAH.

43. Shuzan's Short Staff

Shuzan held out his short staff and said: "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"

Mumon's comment: If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. It cannot be expressed with words and it cannot be expressed without words. Now say quickly what it is.

Holding out the short staff,
He gave an order of life or death.
Positive and negative interwoven,
Even Buddhas and patriarchs cannot escape this attack.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

[Doshin]

I wanted to share that I have read this thread and gained perspectives that I appreciate. I share, because for the last half Century I have thought little about gods or religion but I listened to what each has said and may yet be said. And yet I have been married to an Orthodox Christian (who accepts, appreciates my paradigm and we seldom discuss theism...probably becasue she saw my eyes glaze over too many times so many years ago) for 37 years. In addition my first 17 years on this earth were in and out of Churches of many denominations to understand what today I feel is the unexplainable. So I think little of it. However, I see many religions and philosophies that share a common core set of values of how a social animal can live together. To my mind an evolutionary stragegy for survival...but that is me.

A year or so ago Joyo shared a song here or Face Book, somewhere . One that resonated deeply and I shared that with Joyo. It 'felt" right for me so I told my kids to play it at my death along with food and drink. To rejoice, even though some/many will be sad and concerned for my soul that I will not join them somewhere else. I want them to understand that I saw life 'now" as holy and that I will I continue on within that which has so enriched me. I share here not to counter, convert or convince but to express my life... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiypaURysz4 becasue this thread started with a word that has a place in my existence.

And I sit with all no matter our differences because it seems to me that during that time we are one together....

BTW, if my meandering is way off on the intent here just understand that happens alot with me and enjoy the tune




(Thanks again Joyo and I hope you had a great Canadian Day)


Gassho
Doshin
st/LAH

[Joyo]

Thank you for sharing this, Doshin. This song still touches my soul as well, as I see god in nature. Interesting, as I side more with Darwin as well, and I am also married to a Christian. We rarely discuss religion or God either. I don't mean this in any disrespectful way, but I spend hours sitting on my arse, chanting metta, and studying about emptiness so who am I to judge him or anyone else for being a Christian, or whatever path people choose to follow. =)

(I had a good Canada Day, btw, thank you very much )

Many bows to all paths/religions that bring people comfort and help them to live a life of compassion.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[aprapti]

thanks for sharing, Doshin. its a touching song.. I sing in an Orthodox Christian choir, and indeed, everything is holy now..



aprapti
std