Holiness?

**Jishin** · 07-02-2017, 02:33 PM

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Rich** · 07-02-2017, 02:37 PM

Believe in yourself 100 %. So if the commandments are yours, then no problem. Thanks for your insightful and interesting comments.

SAT today

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**Liang** · 07-02-2017, 02:58 PM

Jishin,
I am not interested in debating theism and it's not really the question I'm asking. I will say that theists who are mystics/contemplatives can benefit a lot from an atheist critique. "God" as commonly expressed and as contained within intellectual doctrines doesn't exist. Rather we can be redirected to the true God we encounter in prayer. All teachings are just fingers pointing at the moon.
That's Zen, but it's also the via negativa with strong traditions within many religions, Christianity and Judaism included. In the US, evangelicals just steal most of the airtime.

**Jishin** · 07-02-2017, 03:53 PM

Hi Fred,

I did not understand your comment. I am pretty ignorant on the subject but know enough to be polite. My apologies.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

**Jundo** · 07-02-2017, 03:58 PM

Fred, Oye Vey, you should ask Him/Her/It, and the pig, and the Rebbe! I have little to offer on this.

As to God, I often say this. if there is a Y-W-H ... chop wood and fetch water, Sit Zazen and live gently. Do unto others.

And if there is no Y-W-H ... chop wood and fetch water, Sit Zazen and live gently. Do unto others.

It is said that the Buddha ate meat if placed in his bowl. One theory is that he was killed by a bad piece of pork (some say a mushroom).

Did Buddha die of eating pork? : with a note on Buddha's image

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-MEL/waley.htm

Gassho and Shalom, Jundo the Cohen

PS - Yes, we ask that you have SatToday before posting.

**Jishin** · 07-02-2017, 04:05 PM

Jundo is the Rebbe.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

שלום

**Jakuden** · 07-02-2017, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Liang

A concrete example is the commandment to not to eat pork. I'm convinced that eating pork doesn't makes you any less holy. Holiness meaning having a connection with and favor or blessings from God. Being set apart from the common attachments of the world. Not being a "worldling" of the Pali Cannon. Plenty of devout people of all kinds of faiths eat or don't eat pork or meat at all and it seems to have no effect on their genuine faith and righteousness.

Yet at the same time by not eating pork you can develop holiness. In the Jewish blessings there the line which is translated "...Lord God, who santicifies us with your commandments, and commanded us to..." I have a real sense by observing the devotional and ritual practice I do develop deeper holiness. A big part of that is the intentionality. Accidentally nof eating pork (maybe cause you have a pet pig and don't want to traumatize your kids or you doctor tells you not to eat it) doesn't merit you unintended holiness.

Of course I'm reminded of Bodhidharma's famous line to the emperor about gaining no merit thru building of countless temples.

The New Testament does address this and says that compassion is more important than legalism which is completely true. Hypothetically if someone invited me to dinner and everything was non-kosher, I believe it would be unkind to refuse their hospitality and would be a better deed to graciously accept and show gratitude for the meal made for you. But it's my view that Jesus and even Paul don't discount the value of following the commandments but opened to the faith also to gentiles but didn't wish for Jews to stop their practices or to critize their observance."

I may be totally off the mark on this, but this brings to mind the eightfold path and "right intention." It is my understanding that while "right action" is also part of the eightfold path, this is subject to intent. So as you mentioned, in some cases the action itself is not holy or unholy, it is rather the intent behind it. So if we practice, examine our motives, and try to act in accord, then we are on the Path, whether you call it Holy, or the Middle Way, or Observing, or just meaningful!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/about to LAH

Mp · 07-02-2017, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Jakuden

I may be totally off the mark on this, but this brings to mind the eightfold path and "right intention." It is my understanding that while "right action" is also part of the eightfold path, this is subject to intent. So as you mentioned, in some cases the action itself is not holy or unholy, it is rather the intent behind it. So if we practice, examine our motives, and try to act in accord, then we are on the Path, whether you call it Holy, or the Middle Way, or Observing, or just meaningful!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/about to LAH

Agreed! Intent is very important when it comes to our actions ... our actions are the only expression to what our intentions are. Right intention usually results in right action. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday

**Suuko** · 07-02-2017, 05:03 PM

Vast emptiness, no holiness.

If we live beyond duality, there's no holy or unholy. Just like the mud feeds the lotus which blossoms the flower.

Gassho,
ST, LAH.

**Jishin** · 07-02-2017, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Guish

Vast emptiness, no holiness.

If we live beyond duality, there's no holy or unholy. Just like the mud feeds the lotus which blossoms the flower.

Gassho,
ST, LAH.

FUKETSU'S SILENCE AND WORDS

A monk asked Fuketsu, "Without words or without silence transgressing, how can one be unmistakably one with the universe?"

Fuketsu said, "I often think of March in Konan (Southern China). The birds sing among hundreds of flagrant flowers."

Mumon's Comments:

Fuketsu's mind was quick as lightning, snatching the road and walking on it. Regrettably Fuketsu was not able to sit on the words of the "ancestors." If anyone should penetrate into this, he would be absolutely free. Without words, without phrases, now say what Zen is.

Fuketsu did not say such a fine phrase,
Without uttering words, he already let it be known. If Fuketsu had become talkative,
You do not know what to do.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

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**Joyo** · 07-02-2017, 07:56 PM

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences, Fred.

I know people, who call themselves holy and Christian, who would crucify Jesus all over again, should he show up in this day and age. They are so full of judgment and hate, no Jesus in them at all. But they do make for very good Zen teachers.

And other people I know, who don't think of themselves as holy at all, are some of the most giving, generous souls that walk this earth. These people inspire me, to quietly practice, living a life of giving and compassion.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

**Zenmei** · 07-02-2017, 08:17 PM

Fred,

Your description of "holiness" sounds a lot like my understanding of karma. Positive intentions lead to holiness or good karma. The only difference I see is that you described holiness as being bestowed by an external entity or force (or however you conceive of god), and I see karma as an emergent property of life, intrinsic to our existence. Pretty sure we're looking at the same moon, though.

Shalom, Zenmei
#sat

**Liang** · 07-02-2017, 08:41 PM

I liked Jundo's thing about ask God, ask a pig, ask your Rabbi/Rebbe. It was said in jest I think but is the best advice especially if I skip the Rabbi since each one has their opinion. If I want to know what God wants me to do it's best to ask God. It's also good to check with pigs (or any other subject of my inquiry) and make sure I'm not being harmful in the name of "religion" (for instance, the church's toxic stance on homosexuality is pretty unchristian or at least not compassionately presented).

Jundo, you gave a simmilar teaching last time talked about God with the analogy of a table in the room that you're sitting zazen. My late mentor and friend Dharmakara was also pretty anti-theistic. He would ask "Did God create man in His image or did man create God in his image?" He was anti-religion even and especially his own. He said there are no Buddhists, only people playing dress up and pretend. He called those who used Buddhism to oppress musliums in their Buddhist countries as "dharma impaired". I definitely miss his guidance.

I don't feel a need to respond to these critiques here. If anyone really wants me to get into my reasons for being a theist you can PM me. Just to say that it's what I've directly experienced both on the meditation cushion and in my life. I'd be foolish to ignore that, but in the same sense you'd be foolish to take my word for it without having a simmilar experience.

I do want to thank all of you that were around the forums a few years ago when I was a regular. I was dealing with PTSD from the army and being in Iraq. My zen practice was key in my healing and dealing with that. That practice also laid the foundation for my contemplative approach to my faith now. Thanks to each of you for that gift of sharing your practice.

I'm assuming it would be okay to join in silent zazen with you all while wearing tefflin and Tallit on a hangout sometime? I think that would be cool. I'm not supposed to talk with Tefflin on anyways, but have my thoughts focused on prayer. But if it would bother anyone you all can let me know.

Gassho
-Fred (the gentile, Technically if Jundo, the Buddhist, has a Jewish maternal ancestry he's Jewish and I'm not without formal conversion regardless of any actual religious practices. Silly human religions! I think my observance makes me "Jewish", but that's Kabbalah and not recognized by most Rabbis).

**Zenmei** · 07-02-2017, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Liang

I don't feel a need to respond to these critiques here. If anyone really wants me to get into my reasons for being a theist you can PM me. Just to say that it's what I've directly experienced both on the meditation cushion and in my life. I'd be foolish to ignore that, but in the same sense you'd be foolish to take my word for it without having a simmilar experience.

I would hope we could have reasonable conversations about God here, without anyone trying to convert anyone else. Maybe I'm naive.

Originally posted by Liang

I'm assuming it would be okay to join in silent zazen with you all while wearing tefflin and Tallit on a hangout sometime? I think that would be cool. I'm not supposed to talk with Tefflin on anyways, but have my thoughts focused on prayer. But if it would bother anyone you all can let me know.

You can sit in a tuxedo or completely naked for all I care. As long as we're sitting together. Although, now that I think about it maybe it's a better idea if we require some clothing. We don't want to get into Skyclad Zendo territory.

Gassho, Zenmei
#sat