On Tonglen

[Jishin]

I like this practice a lot. Steal candy from babies because its impermanent and a cause of suffering and give them nothing back, nothing to attach to, pure joy!

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[gilles]

Maybe we should adopt it here, as a variation or alternative to the Metta Practice? Hmmmm. We might have to adjust some aspects, but it will be largely the same. What do you feel?

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Jundo

lovely idea indeed

Peace
Gilles

SAT2DAY

[Risho]

Kokuu, thank you for your explanation.

Jundo, To echo pretty much everyone - it would be really cool to incorporate this! I've only read part of Norman Fischer's book that Kokuu recommended above; maybe we could do that in an upcoming book club and as we go through it we could internalize each section and sort of see how we could adopt it into our existing Treeleaf practices?

I agree with Jishin - maybe we should sort of modify these practices that are sort of difficult and make them more ego-serving (whoops I mean skillful means) like stealing candy from babies; I'm on board with that. hahahahah

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday/LAH

[Joyo]

I too have practiced tonglen and, yes Jundo, I would be in support of bringing it to Treeleaf, modified version or whatever works for us here.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Tom]

Thanks Jundo.

I must admit, I've been very eclectic of late, reading up on the Pali Canon (http://www.palicanon.org/), and the Theravadan traditions. I've also been thinking about posting here about the Greek and Roman stoics; have been quite stunned by the parallels with Zen buddhism. Then there have been some Vipassana exercises that have been very helpful for Zen sitting.
But we're not encouraged to mix and match. I really like Tonglen as Metta practice. But this blending of traditions will be with us now, see Tricycle magazine for example, which mixes the practices. Yet just sitting is supposed to be all there is.
It'll be a theme that comes up here again and again too.
Gassho,
Tom
Sattoday/LAH
* There might've been cross-fertilization, actually. Stephen Batchelor in his 'Atheist Confessions' book talks about how Siddharta may've studied at institutions with Zoroastrian influence - ie Mara as Ahriman the demon. Hellenic influences came later.

[Jundo]

But we're not encouraged to mix and match. I really like Tonglen as Metta practice. But this blending of traditions will be with us now, see Tricycle magazine for example, which mixes the practices. Yet just sitting is supposed to be all there is.

Just sitting is all there is ... and then we get up and make a sandwich or mow the lawn. Just sitting is all there is in all of time and space .... while sitting.

But in "mixing and matching. picking and choosing" among the Teachings and Practices, just be careful what is mixed and matched. In this sense, it is not unlike fine cooking and dining ... and depends on the particular ingredients chosen and what mixture. Not everything goes together. One must pick and choose from the spiritual menu well, not just head right for the desert section while neglecting the vegetables that are not as sweet on your tongue. Also, bananas are lovely and ketchup is lovely, but a little strange to mix for most (although, last time I said that, Kyonin pointed out once, some folks do! It is just that the flavors just need to be blended carefully) ...



I fear that, these days, we live in a world of "fast food" cafeteria Buddhism and spirituality, where people head for the stuff they want (high in spiritual sugar and fat), not what they necessarily need ... demanding the fast "drive thru" in their busy day because they have no time or patience for a slow, nutritious cooked meal. People want instant gratification, as if Buddha were a bag of chips.

One should pick the Path suited for one ... work with a teacher and community of fellow practitioners ... and GO DEEP! DEEP! MEASURELESSLY DEEP!

Many Buddhist Paths are pretty much a complete path. One can mix and match, but needs to be careful. For example, when sitting Shikantaza, when on the cushion ... THAT IS ALL THERE IS, THAT IS ALL NEEDED, WHOLE AND COMPLETE! Of course, one can get up from the cushion of Shikantaza and do other things ... bow down to Mecca or pray to the Goddess Isis. But when on the cushion sitting Shikantaza, just sit Shikantaza ... one does not sit Shikantaza while contemplating Allah, thinking about sandwiches or reciting Tongen.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jika]

My initial feeling is that the metta verses work well as part of the monthly Zazenkai and daily practice but tonglen could be offered in the same kind of way as the nurturing seeds practice.

For me, there are moments when words (metta verses) are helpful and help me really feel the meaning.

Then there are others when words are difficult for me or I can't remember verses.
But I can remember colours and breathing.

So, different practices can be applied according to one's situation.

But I never managed to get any understanding of nurturing seeds, don't know why, it does not work for me.

Thank you, Kokuu.

Gassho
Jika
#sattoday LAH

[Kotei]

Thank you Kokuu,

not a fan of too many words, I'd try a Jundo/Kokuu checked/modified version.
I think, they'll not modify the original Ketchup to a point, were it becomes that sugar loaded western tomato blob. ;-)
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#History )

Gassho,
Kotei sat/LAH today

[Tom]

I think a famous Tibetan teacher once said something about the 'Spiritual Supermarket.' But yes, that's what I was getting at. We go through lives thinking there's always a faster boat, that the other line is going faster, until we learn to sit still.
Gassho,
Tom,
LAH,Sat.

[Jundo]

I think a famous Tibetan teacher once said something about the 'Spiritual Supermarket.' But yes, that's what I was getting at. We go through lives thinking there's always a faster boat, that the other line is going faster, until we learn to sit still.
Gassho,
Tom,
LAH,Sat.

[Jika]

We go through lives thinking there's always a faster boat

Tom, Jundo,
I see what you mean.
But knowing where (and whom) this Tonglen post is coming from, please open your hearts to all of us who are in a place of illness or suffering.
I'm not looking for a faster boat.
Often Treeleaf is too fast for me.
I'm happy to practice each day in ways I can that day.
Sitting Shikantaza needs the ability to sit and non-focus. Reclining zazen still requires a non-focus, a certain inner attitude, you know what I mean.

"Sitting" with my whole heart, or I'd be just lying down.

With all concern about "faster boat mentality", please don't leave those behind who have days where breathing is all we can do.

Deep bows,
Jika
#sattoday

[Jundo]

Hi Jika,

We each take the boat we can sail.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

Tom, Jundo,
I see what you mean.
But knowing where (and whom) this Tonglen post is coming from, please open your hearts to all of us who are in a place of illness or suffering.
I'm not looking for a faster boat.
Often Treeleaf is too fast for me.
I'm happy to practice each day in ways I can that day.
Sitting Shikantaza needs the ability to sit and non-focus. Reclining zazen still requires a non-focus, a certain inner attitude, you know what I mean.

"Sitting" with my whole heart, or I'd be just lying down.

With all concern about "faster boat mentality", please don't leave those behind who have days where breathing is all we can do.

Deep bows,
Jika
#sattoday

Hello Jika,

I practiced Tonglen many years ago when I studied Tibetan Bonpo Buddhism and I remember a lovely analogy in relation to its practice. Tonglen is when we help a person be free from suffering, but when this is done, it is done in the heart fully and completely without any hindrance. It can be a difficult thing when we ourselves are suffering, so in that time we care for ourselves. This practice of Tonglen is not about fast or slow, doing it right or doing it wrong. It is about being aware of the world around you and seeing the people who are in need of this loving kindness and gentle support, taking their suffering in, transforming it to peace and stillness, and sending it back to them. So you see, this practice again is 100% about supporting others who are in need of support, just like our Engaged Buddhism and Metta and not about gaining something for ourselves. In giving love and support to others, we gain a sense of equanimity in ourselves.

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Meitou]

I've also transitioned from five years or so of Tibetan Kagyu/Dzogchen practice and Tonglen is indeed very similar to the Metta practice, although Tonglen is perhaps a little more intense for some people, as it does require that we take on the pain of others and really try to believe that we are doing that, as Kokuu has described above. But I feel that both have a similar purpose, to help and support us to sit with suffering, not just that of other people but also our own, which sometimes is harder to look in the face. And that in turn helps to bring out the compassion that we all have in our hearts, even in the most difficult of circumstances. I always say it's easy to feel compassion for those we see as victims - of terrorism for example, but it's a huge leap to then feel that same compassion for the suffering that drives terrorists to such extreme acts. I'd be all for practising Tonglen here, I don't see anything in it that conflicts with the Treeleaf ethos.
Thank you Kokuu

Gassho, Frankie

Sat with you all today.

[Kokuu]

This practice of Tonglen is not about fast or slow, doing it right or doing it wrong. It is about being aware of the world around you and seeing the people who are in need of this loving kindness and gentle support, taking their suffering in, transforming it to peace and stillness, and sending it back to them. So you see, this practice again is 100% about supporting others who are in need of support, just like our Engaged Buddhism and Metta and not about gaining something for ourselves. In giving love and support to others, we gain a sense of equanimity in ourselves.