Focusing on the Eyes

[Mitka]

Question about the eyes.

I have found that during my sittings my eyes tend to "drift up". This disturbs my sitting, and I feel like have to return them towards a more downwards position. Additionally, my eyes tend to get very unfocused, so that after I sit it is difficult to see things clearly. Just wondering if both these tendencies were normal and, if not, how I should correct them. Thank you.

Matthew

Sattoday

[Jundo]

Question about the eyes.

I have found that during my sittings my eyes tend to "drift up". This disturbs my sitting, and I feel like have to return them towards a more downwards position. Additionally, my eyes tend to get very unfocused, so that after I sit it is difficult to see things clearly. Just wondering if both these tendencies were normal and, if not, how I should correct them. Thank you.

Matthew

Sattoday

Hi Matthew,

I just sit, looking out through my half open eyes, no differently than if I were sitting at my kitchen table looking at the room or driving a car looking at the road. If looking at the wall, I am just looking as if looking at any scenery. Normal vision, but I just am not particularly thinking about, pondering or concentrating on what I am seeing. I describe it as "staring at everything and nothing in particular". My eyes take in the room or the floor or wall quiet naturally, but I do not latch onto anything mentally to think about what I am seeing. For example, my eyes may rest on a chair or on some spots on the wall, but I just do not get lost in thoughts such as "ugly chair, need to go chair shopping" or "those dots look just like a giraffe"

My focus just wanders from point to point to point quite naturally, resting where they rest, on this or that, then moving on when they move on.

What a room looks like before Zazen ...



What the room looks like during Zazen (but just not thinking particularly thoughts like "ugly sofa, nice chair, wish I were outside, need to clean this dirty floor ... "



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mitka]

Hi Matthew,

I just sit, looking out through my half open eyes, no differently than if I were sitting at my kitchen table looking at the room or driving a car looking at the road. If looking at the wall, I am just looking as if looking at any scenery. Normal vision, but I just am not particularly thinking about, pondering or concentrating on what I am seeing. I describe it as "staring at everything and nothing in particular". My eyes take in the room or the floor or wall quiet naturally, but I do not latch onto anything mentally to think about what I am seeing. For example, my eyes may rest on a chair or on some spots on the wall, but I just do not get lost in thoughts such as "ugly chair, need to go chair shopping" or "those dots look just like a giraffe"

My focus just wanders from point to point to point quite naturally, resting where they rest, on this or that, then moving on when they move on.

What a room looks like before Zazen ...



What the room looks like during Zazen (but just not thinking particularly thoughts like "ugly sofa, nice chair, wish I were outside, need to clean this dirty floor ... "



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Thank you Jundo. What I hear you saying is that the problem is not so much my eyes wandering, but my thoughts about my eyes wandering. I guess learning to let go of my eyes "needing" to be somewhere is going to be part of my practice.

I've found putting my attention in the palm of my hand as suggested to really help with the blurriness and phosphenes. Don't know why that helps, but thanks so much for bringing up that suggestion, Taigu!

Sattoday LAH

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo. What I hear you saying is that the problem is not so much my eyes wandering, but my thoughts about my eyes wandering. I guess learning to let go of my eyes "needing" to be somewhere is going to be part of my practice.

I've found putting my attention in the palm of my hand as suggested to really help with the blurriness and phosphenes. Don't know why that helps, but thanks so much for bringing up that suggestion, Taigu!

Sattoday LAH

Yes, just be normal. I look at places on the wall, or objects in the room such as the chair ... and my eyes remain in focus ... but I just don't think ABOUT what I am seeing. I advise new folks to follow the breath, but Dogen also advised folks to place the attention in the palm if they wish (I don't think you mean that you LOOK at the palm during Zazen, because that is almost physically impossible unless you are bending you head, which you should not be doing).

For me, it is floaters in the eyes, the little spots and dust that are naturally in the eye and we usually do not notice until we look at a still surface and are quiet. My advice to all things is, as we say in the nice Americanism "Pay em no nevermind." Just let them be, and simply don't be bothered.

If I may, this is important enough for most new folks that I am going to move it into its own topic in the general Zen section.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Tai Shi]

Would that I had asked Jundo about my neck when I first came to Treeleaf. For almost 3 years I looked down, and I have pretty bad arthritis in my neck and spine. Finally, in desperation I spoke to my wife about my practice. She advised that I hold my head straight ahead. Then remembering the videos of instruction, I let thoughts slide away from my mind, and my eyes grow nearly closed. Since my knees are all but gone, I sit in a straight back chair attempting to make a tripod. But, because my legs are bad, I find myself moving them slightly from time to time. Six years ago, I began meditation with breath counting in our easy chair. Now my focus is better and I can sit in a kitchen chair, always the breath, as one of the priests-in-training taught me like a cow chewing her cud, back and forth the breath, Mudra with the hands, eyes lids slits, slowly in and out, and now I can even sit for about 30 minutes. This all has come to me very slowly. I sit often, but I am 65, and I have time. I feel I am making some things be, and my practice is slow. Please, let yourself come into sitting slowly, and ask questions. Questions are good or you may go three years bowing as in church. It took me a while to understand that Shikantaza is not church.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Shinshou]

My goodness, floaters, yes. They move just slowly enough to intermittently grab my attention, but not quickly enough to ignore. Staring at a white wall certainly doesn't help!

I will say that I really prefer to look straight ahead rather than down toward the floor. I have chronic shoulder tendinitis, and casting my eyes downward tends to pull my head down and forward, straining my neck and shoulder. I try to think of my head as a bowling ball balanced on my neck with a slight upward stretch. I also use a pillow to rest my hands on - resting them low in my lap pulls on that shoulder and results in aching pain.

It's nice to be able to make accommodations for all our individual needs. Those floaters though....!

Sat today

[Jundo]

Yes, find the posture(s) right for you ... if it feels as balanced, comfortable, stable as possible, that is the one(s) (because they may change even during the same day, or with small adjustments even during the same sitting).

We have had many threads on this. Some folks with medical needs even "sit" on their side or on their back ...

Several talks in the "Always Beginners" series on posture, including standard ways and when there are special needs ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?121-A-SERIES-OF-TALKS-FOR-NEW-FOLKS-%28NEW%29

Other recent threads ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15250-Impossible-full-lotus&highlight=posture+balanced

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15226-Sitting-in-Seriza-HURTS%21&highlight=posture+balanced

My advice is about always the same. The Johnson book "The Posture of Meditation" which I mention is quite good.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Washin]

Additionally, my eyes tend to get very unfocused, so that after I sit it is difficult to see things clearly.

I usually experience the same. However, after I get up from cushion my eyes get back into focus pretty quickly.
In the past I thought I was probably doing something wrong but later I realized this could just be my body.

Gassho
Washin
SAT & LAH

[Eishuu]

I used to get terrible eye strain while doing Zazen...I think I was too tense and trying too hard. Once I started to relax it wasn't a problem but it took a while. I just let them rest where it feels comfortable and natural now. Also I think if you are not used to meditating with your eyes open it takes a while to get used to. I found it really odd and uncomfortable at first.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today/LAH

[Tairin]

I sit facing a completely blank wall. There is absolutely nothing to focus on and so I find that my eyes remain open but certainly don't tire or strain. My original teacher described this as looking with "soft eyes".

Gassho
Warren
Sat today & LAH

[Mp]

I sit facing a completely blank wall. There is absolutely nothing to focus on and so I find that my eyes remain open but certainly don't tire or strain.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today & LAH

That is a good point Warren ... I too find sitting with less visual stimuli helps with eye strain. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[JimH]

I do one of the big "no-no's", if you talk to many practitioners. I meditate with my eyes closed, and see just the darkness. The only reason I think I do this is that it is the way that is most comfortable for me, mentally. I let my eyes rest, and let my mind focus on what the "inner eye" is seeing, not what my half-closed physical eye is seeing. For me, it's fewer distractions.

The key I need to remember is to not sit if I am really tired (but that is a general warning, no?). I could see how people can fall asleep that way, but....

Gassho--

--JimH

SatToday!