Mindfulness and Shikantaza

[tlsk]

Hello Everyone, I hope your respective days are going well,

I have a question about shikantaza zazen. I've always heard that regardless of what meditation technique one hopes to employ, it's best to start with a simple "mindfulness of breathing" technique (following the breath, counting the breath, and the like) until one can develop a relatively stable level of concentration. While that makes some sense to me, it only really makes sense in terms of a meditation object. My understanding of skikantaza zazen is that it's an essentially "objectless" meditation. So, developing the ability to concentrate on an object seems--to a total neophyte like myself--a lot like swimming laps in hopes of becoming a good pole vaulter. That being said, I do find I experience much less distraction when I concentrate on the breath as opposed to resolving to "just sit."

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, "Would one's shikantaza zazen practice ultimately be better served by beginning with a mindfulness practice and less thought distraction, or initially navigating more distraction in the interest of preserving the shikantaza technique?"

Gassho,
Taylor
SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Taylor,

I am also recommending starting by following the breath with Shikantaza and then, eventually, transitioning to "open spacious awareness". You can find more information on that, and other topics, in our "Always Beginners" series of talks ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?121-A-SERIES-OF-TALKS-FOR-NEW-FOLKS-%28NEW%29

I believe that is discussed a couple of places in there.

However, Shikantaza is not "mindfulness" practice. You will also find description of what Shikantaza is in that series. Basically, we sit with "what is" including thoughts that come and go. However, at the same time, it is good to learn how to let the thoughts and emotions settle down a bit, and not get caught in them. Following the breath is helpful when the thoughts are really running wild. A degree of concentration and settling is good.

Let me know if the above does not answer your questions.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Hoko]

I'm not a teacher and I'll wait for the official answer with the rest of us but while I don't think a little initial mindfulness of the breath/body is a bad thing (any more than rocking side to side settles the body on the zafu) it's not the "point/non-point" of shikantaza which is to be aware of everything at once and nothing in particular. If you remain focused on the breath then there is an "object" of meditation which means it isn't shikantaza. You're correct to say that It's not really an appropriate analogy to view counting breaths as a beginner technique and shikantaza as "advanced". We're all beginners and one could spend a lifetime doing mindfulness of the breath.

The other thing at hand here is how to make shikantaza "better" which presumes that there is good zazen and bad zazen. Shikantaza is complete in and of itself with nothing to add or take away so it can't be better or worse, long or short.

Ultimately we are all individuals so the way we sit, the speed of our breathing, the most comfortable posture, etc are the results of causes and conditions specific to us. Therefore I think there's some room for individualism in terms of how you "get to" shikantaza. If you like a little breath counting at the start then why not? It's all part of the whole. You have to start somewhere. You have to say something. You have to awaken bodhicitta. And then you have to do it again. And again. And again.

So I guess if you want to take a couple of practice swings at the ball before you try "for real" then go for it. Just don't stay there. Because shikantaza doesn't "stay there". The mountains move, the stone woman gives birth. Just sit.

I'm certain others will have plenty of wisdom to add.

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday
LAH


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[tlsk]

Thank you for your timely response, Jundo.

It was not my intention to lump "mindfulness" and "shikantaza" into the same category. I see now that I initially missed the nuance present in "following the breath with Shikantaza" as opposed to merely "following the breath." I will revisit some of the early videos of the series with this distinction in mind.

Deep Gassho,
Taylor
SatToday/LAH

[tlsk]

Hello Hōkō!

It's a pleasure to finally exchange words as opposed to "likes" in the Insight Timer App! (ha)

That's a very wise perspective concerning the "better shikantaza." I've studied other traditions, namely Theravadan, in which the practice of meditation is associated with progress and stages. I still struggle with the notion of wholeness from the outset, though I believe it to be the ultimately correct perspective.

Gassho,
Taylor
SatToday/LAH

[Kyonin]

Hi Taylor!

In my experience, when one begins shikantaza practice sometimes the mind is too stirred up with the events of the day. Following the breathing is helpful because it helps tell your mind that it's time to simply sit zazen.

However, the more you sit you'll find that even following the breath is an obstacle to just sit with what is. Hard to explain, so you'd better keep up with your practice and discover yourself.

There are times when I begin focusing on my breath, but few seconds later I find that distracting and just let go of it too.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[tlsk]

Hi Taylor!

In my experience, when one begins shikantaza practice sometimes the mind is too stirred up with the events of the day. Following the breathing is helpful because it helps tell your mind that it's time to simply sit zazen.

However, the more you sit you'll find that even following the breath is an obstacle to just sit with what is. Hard to explain, so you'd better keep up with your practice and discover yourself.

There are times when I begin focusing on my breath, but few seconds later I find that distracting and just let go of it too.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

Hello Kyonin!

Thanks for joining in!

That (the notion that following the breath becomes a distraction) makes total sense to me because I've noticed some of the ways in which one can follow the breath are more distracting than others. Perhaps "distracting" isn't the word i'm after here...unsettling, maybe? It feels more subtle than a distraction in the moment. But I prefer to simply note "In" or "Out" over counting the breath because I invariably lose focus more frequently when i count.

Gassho,
Taylor
SatTodayLAH


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[Joyo]

Hello Taylor,

I do use the breath the same way that Kyonin described. Eventually it falls away, unless the mind gets stirred up again, and then you can go back to following the breath again for a bit. I few it as a tool, but definitely not the main thing to focus or zone in on while sitting.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat toda//lah

[tlsk]

Mindfulness and Shikantaza

Hello Taylor,

I do use the breath the same way that Kyonin described. Eventually it falls away, unless the mind gets stirred up again, and then you can go back to following the breath again for a bit. I few it as a tool, but definitely not the main thing to focus or zone in on while sitting.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat toda//lah

Thanks for the input Joyo! I've seen some of your posts here and there, but it's nice to finally speak directly.

How long would you say into the sit (on average) does your mind still enough to move away from the breath?

Gassho,
Taylor
SatToday/LAH

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[Jishin]

Mindfulness and Shikantaza

Hi,

A cloud comes. A cloud goes. A cloud comes and goes. The mountain sits. Sits still. There is no mountain without the contrast of the cloud. There is no cloud without contrast to the mountain. Clouds and mountains go together. So much so that sometimes you can't tell them apart. Shizantaza is somewhere in there.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Some wise and lovely advice here from the folks ...

The other thing at hand here is how to make shikantaza "better" which presumes that there is good zazen and bad zazen. Shikantaza is complete in and of itself with nothing to add or take away so it can't be better or worse, long or short.

...

In my experience, when one begins shikantaza practice sometimes the mind is too stirred up with the events of the day. Following the breathing is helpful because it helps tell your mind that it's time to simply sit zazen.

However, the more you sit you'll find that even following the breath is an obstacle to just sit with what is. Hard to explain, so you'd better keep up with your practice and discover yourself.

...

do use the breath the same way that Kyonin described. Eventually it falls away, unless the mind gets stirred up again, and then you can go back to following the breath again for a bit. I few it as a tool, but definitely not the main thing to focus or zone in on while sitting.

...

A cloud comes. A cloud goes. A cloud comes and goes. The mountain sits. Sits still. There is no mountain without the contrast of the cloud. There is no cloud without contrast to the mountain. Clouds and mountains go together. So much so that sometimes you can't tell them apart. Shizantaza is somewhere in there.

Lovely.

The one caution I might offer is that Zazen does have an "object" even when that object is "open spacious awareness", looking at this or that, everything and anything yet not anything in particular at all, not thinking about it. That is what we are observing. Semantics really. However, one might say that, when the hard walls between "in" and "out" are forgotten, and outside flows in and inside out ... subject and object are "one" or "not two". Then, it is truly "objectless" meditation in such way too.

One can practice Shikantaza spending a lifetime experiencing the breath , where "in" and "out" are also transcended in such way as breath is like a gate. But I usually recommend "open awareness" eventually for mainly reasons. You can read more here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14573-Question-on-object-of-concentration&p=181140&viewfull=1#post181140

And, yes, Zazen is beyond "right and wrong, good and bad" and we sit dropping all such distinctions. Every Zazen is just Zazen. However, that does not mean that there is not "good and bad Zazen, and right ways to do it!" You can read more about that Koan here:

Right Zazen and Wrong Zazen

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7573-SPECIAL-REPOST-Right-Zazen-and-Wrong-Zazen

(SPOILER ALERT: Zazen is "good" when we radically sit transcendent of judgments of "good and bad." )

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

By the way, Shunryu Suzuki Roshi on Shikantaza and Breath. Being with the breath can be excellent Shikantaza too, don't mistake that. It is just that I believe a transition "out to the world" by open awareness is eventually important so that we don't just stay so inwardly focused on the breath experience ...

Suzuki Roshi from ZMBM

"What we call 'I' is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale."

When we practice zazen our mind always follows our breathing. When we inhale, the air comes into our inner world. When we exhale, the air goes out to the outer world. The inner world is limitless, and the outer world is also limitless. We say "inner world" or "outer world," but actually there is just one whole world. In this limitless world, our throat is like a swinging door. The air comes in and goes out like someone passing through a swinging door.

If you think "I breathe," the "I" is extra. There is no you to say "I." What we call "I" is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no "I," no world, no mind nor body; just a swinging door.

So when we practice zazen, all that exists is the movement of the breathing, but we are aware of this movement. You should not be absent-minded. But to be aware of the movement does not mean to be aware of your small self, but rather of your universal nature, or Buddha nature. This kind of awareness is very important, because we are usually so one-sided.

Our usual understanding of life is dualistic: you and I, this and that, good and bad. But actually these discriminations are themselves the awareness of the universal existence. "You" means to be aware of the universe in the form of you, and "I" means to be aware of it in the form of I. You and I are just swinging doors. This kind of understanding is necessary. This should not even be called understanding; it is actually the true experience of life through Zen practice.

When you practice zazen, there is no idea of time or space. You may say, "We started sitting at a quarter to six in this room." Thus you have some idea of time (a quarter to six), and some idea of space (in this room). Actually what you are doing, however, is just sitting and being aware of the universal activity. That is all. This moment the swinging door is opening in one direction, and the next moment the swinging door will be opening in the opposite direction.

Moment after moment each one of us repeats this activity. Here there is no idea of time or space. Time and space are one. You may say, "I must do something this afternoon," but actually there is no "this afternoon." We do things one after the other. That is all. There is no such time as "this afternoon" or "one o'clock" or "two o'clock." At one o'clock you will eat your lunch. To eat lunch is itself one o'clock. For someone who actually appreciates our life, they are the same.

When we become truly ourselves, we just become a swinging door, and we are purely independent of, and at the same time, dependent on everything. Without air, we cannot breathe. Each of us is in the midst of myriads of worlds. We are in the center of the world always, moment after moment. So we are completely dependent and independent. If you have this kind of experience, this kind of existence, you have absolute independence; you will not be bothered by anything. So when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated on your breathing.This kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. Without this experience, this practice, it is impossible to attain absolute freedom.

[Joyo]

Thanks for the input Joyo! I've seen some of your posts here and there, but it's nice to finally speak directly.

How long would you say into the sit (on average) does your mind still enough to move away from the breath?

Gassho,
Taylor
SatToday/LAH

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Hello again Taylor, that's a hard question to answer. I'm often sitting with noise going on in my house so I then use concentration on the breath more often. It really depends, as well, on what has gone on in my day, how busy my mind it. Regardless, I'd say it's best to not pay too much attention to how many times during one sitting. Just use it, even for a few seconds, and then let it slowly melt away. Eventually, you get to a point where there can be noise in your house, noise going on in your head, and you just sit with it all, no need to grasp on to any of it. It's hard to explain, but if you stay committed to sitting you will soon experience it for yourself. =) Just be easy on yourself and don't start to judge how well/not well you think you are doing.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Jundo]

Hello again Taylor, that's a hard question to answer. I'm often sitting with noise going on in my house so I then use concentration on the breath more often. It really depends, as well, on what has gone on in my day, how busy my mind it. Regardless, I'd say it's best to not pay too much attention to how many times during one sitting. Just use it, even for a few seconds, and then let it slowly melt away. Eventually, you get to a point where there can be noise in your house, noise going on in your head, and you just sit with it all, no need to grasp on to any of it. It's hard to explain, but if you stay committed to sitting you will soon experience it for yourself. =) Just be easy on yourself and don't start to judge how well/not well you think you are doing.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

Lovely. Yes, everyone is different. Some days, when things need to settle a bit, I return to the breath too (especially on THOSE days of chaos! ) Maybe experiment with moving back and forth a bit when it feels right. No hard and fast rule on this. Right away, after a few weeks or months, try to move back and forth a few times during the sitting ... what you feel feels right is probably right.

Gassho, J

SatTodatLAH

[tlsk]

Thank you all so much. You have been most, most helpful.

Gassho,
Taylor
SatToday


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