Sitting well...

[dharmasponge]

Hello everyone, hope you're well _/|\_

Is there a definitive way of differentiating between merely 'Zoning Out' when sitting and actually practising Shikantaza?
I am not referring to the mind lapsing into a daydream or ruminating, that I can see as indulgent - its more trying to understand that my practice is valid when sitting.

Thanks.

#sat_today

[Jundo]

Hello everyone, hope you're well _/|\_

Is there a definitive way of differentiating between merely 'Zoning Out' when sitting and actually practising Shikantaza?
I am not referring to the mind lapsing into a daydream or ruminating, that I can see as indulgent - its more trying to understand that my practice is valid when sitting.

Thanks.

#sat_today

Yes. The way to differentiate between 'Zoning Out' when sitting and not 'Zoning Out' when sitting is that not 'Zoning Out' when sitting does not feel like one is 'Zoning Out' when sitting.

We try not to "Zone Out" in sitting. Nevertheless, sometimes we "Zone Out" in sitting. However, ultimately, there is no "In" nor "Out" in the Zazen Zone of Shikantaza.

In Shikantaza, once sits in the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting. In Shikantaza, we return again and again to the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, by returning our attention to open awareness, returning to the breath or posture, straightening the back a bit, taking a deep breath and "Zoning In."

But here is the funny thing ...

Although in Shikantaza one returns again and again to the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, with nothing lacking and nothing in need of adding ...

... on some days Shikantaza still feels nonetheless like falling into 'Zoning Out' when sitting. That's okay, because 'Zoning Out' when sitting is also the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, with nothing lacking and nothing in need of adding ... and NOT 'Zoning Out' when sitting is also the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, with nothing lacking and nothing in need of adding.

In fact, -ALL- sitting, whether "Zoning In" or "Zoning Out," is the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, with nothing lacking and nothing in need of adding beyond "In" or "Out".

What is an analogy to help explain this?

Shikantaza is the Moon shining in a clear, open, boundless sky beyond thought and judgement with not one thing lacking. Most of us, before Practicing Zen are lost in the dark and dense clouds of thoughts and judgments and runaway fears and other emotions that hide the moon. Zazen makes the Moon quite visible as the clouds clear away. In clearing, all becomes Completion, Wholeness, Not One Drop Missing, Beyond Time and Fear.

But here is the funny thing: We also learn that the Moon is still shining even when hidden by the clouds. In a sense, we learn to feel the presence of the Moon, and the clear open boundless sky even on the stormiest days in life. We no longer even need to always see the Moon in sky's presence to know that the moon and sky is still here. What is more, we come to see the light of the moon and the openness of the sky as they shine through the clouds, now translucent ... sky and clouds never two. The darkness of the clouds become illuminated, less solid, and we see right through the thoughts, fears, emotions and all the rest.

"Zoning Out" is just another of the clouds that seem to hide the Moon. Yet, the Moon shines on whether Zoning Out or Not Zoning Out, Zoning Out or Zoning In. Some days there is no Zoning Out, and the clear boundless light of the moon fills the open sky. Some days there is Zoning Out where all is dark and dreary, yet the Moon is still the Moon. Some days "Zoning Out' and Moon are not two ... Mooning Out.

There is no "In" or "Out" that is separate in the "Zen Zone."

Nonetheless, we try not to 'Zone Out', but rather 'Zone In.' We don't want to be just complacent and "zone out" all the time. Return to open awareness, the breath or posture, and put down the daydreaming and ruminations as one can. We don't want to just be clouded all the time.

Understand?

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[PClark1]

Yes. The way to differentiate between 'Zoning Out' when sitting and not 'Zoning Out' when sitting is that not 'Zoning Out' when sitting does not feel like one is 'Zoning Out' when sitting. [emoji14]

In Shikantaza, once sits in the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting. In Shikantaza, we return again and again to the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, by returning our attention to open awareness, returning to the breath or posture, straightening the back a bit, taking a deep breath and "Zoning In."

But here is the funny thing ...

Although in Shikantaza one returns again and again to the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, with nothing lacking and nothing in need of adding ...

... on some days Shikantaza still feels nonetheless like falling into 'Zoning Out' when sitting. That's okay, because 'Zoning Out' when sitting is also the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, with nothing lacking and nothing in need of adding ... and NOT 'Zoning Out' when sitting is also the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, with nothing lacking and nothing in need of adding.

In fact, -ALL- sitting, whether "Zoning In" or "Zoning Out," is the Completion, Wholeness and Not One Drop More Needed of Just Sitting, with nothing lacking and nothing in need of adding beyond "In" or "Out".

What is an analogy to help explain this?

Shikantaza is the Moon shining in a clear, open, boundless sky beyond thought and judgement with not one thing lacking. Most of us, before Practicing Zen are lost in the dark and dense clouds of thoughts and judgments and runaway fears and other emotions that hide the moon. Zazen makes the Moon quite visible as the clouds clear away. In clearing, all becomes Completion, Wholeness, Not One Drop Missing, Beyond Time and Fear.

But here is the funny thing: We also learn that the Moon is still shining even when hidden by the clouds. In a sense, we learn to feel the presence of the Moon, and the clear open boundless sky even on the stormiest days in life. We no longer even need to always see the Moon in sky's presence to know that the moon and sky is still here. What is more, we come to see the light of the moon and the openness of the sky as they shine through the clouds, now translucent ... sky and clouds never two. The darkness of the clouds become illuminated, less solid, and we see right through the thoughts, fears, emotions and all the rest.

"Zoning Out" is just another of the clouds that seem to hide the Moon. Yet, the Moon shines on whether Zoning Out or Not Zoning Out, Zoning Out or Zoning In. Some days there is no Zoning Out, and the clear boundless light of the moon fills the open sky. Some days there is Zoning Out where all is dark and dreary, yet the Moon is still the Moon. Some days "Zoning Out' and Moon are not two ... Mooning Out.

There is no "In" or "Out" that is separate in the "Zen Zone."

Nonetheless, we try not to 'Zone Out', but rather 'Zone In.' We don't want to be just complacent and "zone out" all the time. Return to open awareness, the breath or posture, and put down the daydreaming and ruminations as one can. We don't want to just be clouded all the time.

Understand?

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Thank you, Jundo.

Gassho
Paul

Sat today/LAH

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[Jishin]

Sitting well...

Jundo is the teacher, not me.

That said I would say if you think you are doing it right you are definitely doing it wrong. If you think you are doing it wrong you are definitely doing it wrong. If you don't know then you may be doing it right or wrong. Wrong if you are ignorant about it and just sit with a chill out attitude, everything is gonna be alright, lets go ahead and smoke some dope. If you don't know because you are doing one thing at a time and that nothing needs to be added or taken away then you are doing it right! Congratulations! Things are as they are. That's all. Pretty simple.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Billy]

Thank you for this question and answer.


Billy
SatTodayLAH

[Entai]

Hello everyone, hope you're well _/|\_

Is there a definitive way of differentiating between merely 'Zoning Out' when sitting and actually practising Shikantaza?
I am not referring to the mind lapsing into a daydream or ruminating, that I can see as indulgent - its more trying to understand that my practice is valid when sitting.

Thanks.

#sat_today

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by "zoning out" as opposed to daydreaming, etc.

As to the validity of practice, I'm no expert. Probably one way of gauging would be how things are when off of the cushion. I find that my reactions to daily events are a little more measured and thoughtful.

However, I may be completely missing your point.
Gassho,
Entai
Sat today /LAH

[Mp]

Jundo has said it so well here and cannot really add much, but what I can say is, when sitting sit, but be engaged in your sitting. But not an engagement where you are putting too much attention on sitting, but that your engagement is that "open awareness" that Jundo speaks of. Know what your mind is doing, know what your breathe is doing, know what your body is doing. So when either of them is caught in "Zoning Out", bring it back to the present moment, to that "open awareness" and just continue to sit. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Shinshou]

Just my experience: sitting is a balance of attention and awareness. If I'm too attentive, it's work. If I'm too openly aware, it's zoning out. But all of it is sitting; it's the believing/realizing that fact that inhibits shikantaza when that balance is off. The ordinary mind IS the Buddha mind.

I will freely admit that among my fantasies, memories, ruminations, etc. etc. etc., the hardest thoughts for me to let pass during sitting are the ones related to "am I doing this right?!"

Sat Today

[Jishin]

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[emoji2]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Sekishi]

Pretty much everything that has been said here.

My personal experience has been something like this (this is not a teaching, YMMV, caveat emptor, etc.):

- The "Wholeness and Not One Drop More" that Jundo mentions (which is pretty much in line with Dogen's "intimacy with all beings") is ALWAYS there and ALWAYS true, but often hidden
- Sometimes in sitting the mind and body settles in perfect openness without this or that, coming or going
- Sometimes in sitting I know this "not one drop more" with perfect intimacy and a sort of deep and sincere "well DUH"
- Sometimes in sitting the mind wanders and there is a sudden realization "the mind is wandering" and then there is a returning to "not one drop more"
- Sometimes in sitting the mind chews and chews on a worry or irritation or the taste of a long gone meal (or whatever) and there is no returning at all (just more chewing and worry)

But over time it has been my experience that there is a settling into a knowing that regardless of the mental chatter, worry, irritation, sustained focus, perfect intimacy, or whatever, that I've come to TRUST that under it all is that wholeness of "not one drop more". And the more times I come home to it, or even let go of the DESIRE to come home to it, a habit is formed and that habit travels with me on the cushion and off.

From this perspective, how could I "differentiate between merely 'Zoning Out' and actually practising Shikantaza"? Sometimes I "zone out" for 10 seconds before returning, sometimes I "zone out" for 10 minutes. Buddhas of the past say that sometimes I've "zoned out" for entire lifetimes. But throughout those times, not one drop more was needed. How splendid to be able to sit with it directly from time to time!

But that is just like my $0.02 man.

Gassho,
Sekishi

[Jundo]

Buddhas of the past say that sometimes I've "zoned out" for entire lifetimes. But throughout those times, not one drop more was needed. How splendid to be able to sit with it directly from time to time!

But that is just like my $0.02 man.

Lovely.

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Jundo and everyone for offering up some advice - always helpful. Off I go to inwardly digest it all.

PS. are we still doing the 'Sat_Today' thing?

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo and everyone for offering up some advice - always helpful. Off I go to inwardly digest it all.

PS. are we still doing the 'Sat_Today' thing?

Yes, and ask that you not place it merely in the footer, but write it fresh each time.

Also, do you know about LAH???

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15314-A-TREELEAF-EXPERIMENT-with-EVERYONE%C2%92S-PARTICIPATION-REQUESTED-%C2%93LAH%C2%94-%28Lend-A-Hand%29

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[dharmasponge]

Yes, and ask that you not place it merely in the footer, but write it fresh each time.

Also, do you know about LAH???

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15314-A-TREELEAF-EXPERIMENT-with-EVERYONE%C2%92S-PARTICIPATION-REQUESTED-%C2%93LAH%C2%94-%28Lend-A-Hand%29

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Okie Dokie...but to answer your questions:

No

I do now