Zazen observations

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  • Meian
    Member
    • Apr 2015
    • 1712

    Zazen observations

    I have recently increased my sitting practice - sitting for longer periods, "going deeper" (for lack of better terminology), and experiencing various mental states while sitting. My sessions are not long, only 30-60 minutes - but that is long for me.

    I tend to approach life in general in a rather methodical manner (I observe and learn from my observations, then see what else I can apply it to, observe, learn, repeat), and I've noticed a few things resulting from my practice.

    My overall energy has increased - this was unexpected. After all, "sitting" - wouldn't that make one more tired? As a sedentary practice - yet the opposite is true. It appears to have an energizing effect, to the point of insomnia sometimes if I do it at the wrong time (an odd "alert" state at unexpected times). Increased mental awareness, clarity, calm, physical energy, more self-control (to an extent), etc. Leaves me "buzzing" sometimes?

    A sense of deep calm combined with a heightened state of awareness - interesting and somewhat new experience for me. I have experienced this before, but completely by accident, more like a dream-state before (don't know how I got there, just happened), but this seems to be happening with longer sitting periods and possibly deeper meditative states? Not sure. Just seems connected.

    Stuff that used to bother me, isn't bothering me as much. Or it may still bother me initially, but quickly falls away after I consider it, then realize - it's irrelevant, or I find a better way to handle it and let it drop. Thus - stress level is decreasing. Another unexpected result that seems connected.

    Also - as I noticed last night, it is becoming easier for me to sit, and then "sit" - futz around less, and go deeper with less struggle. It's not all roses, but it's not the struggle that it was. Not sure how to explain that was, or to say that it is easy. My body still rebels on me, but then sometimes I feel that drop as well. So it also takes me a moment to reorient myself to my surroundings if there is an interruption, and I'm not sure if that is a problem. I don't fall asleep, but my mind goes very quiet and "in retreat" ...... I am finding that regular exercise is helping to counteract the physical demands of sitting.

    Sorry, I do not have a language for this, so what I am saying might not make any sense.

    I personally think all of this is connected in some way to my longer sitting sessions. It's an interesting experience, considering the recent changes in my life circumstances, and what my practice is now enabling me to handle. I'm both adding *more* to my schedule (longer sitting sessions, more practice) and reducing my stress response and anxiety levels at the same time. Counterintuitive, in a way - but fascinating at the same time.

    This is probably documented somewhere, but I have not researched it.

    Gassho
    Kim
    Sat today
    鏡道 |​ Kyodo (Meian) | "Mirror of the Way"
    visiting Unsui
    Nothing I say is a teaching, it's just my own opinion.
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 41220

    #2
    NOTE TO ALL - I AM NASTY SICK TODAY, AND THE ADVICE HERE WAS BASED ON A FOGGY EYED MISREAD OF THE QUESTION. PLEASE SEE MY CORRECTION BELOW

    Hi Kim,

    It sounds very positive right now. But I do not usually encourage such long and deep sitting around here. It sounds like it is pleasant for you right now, but it can be very powerful and easily go out off balance too. If there is any sign of change in yuor emotions, you need an in person teacher for that, and I do not want anyone to advise you from here on such sitting.

    If it is working for you now (and it sounds very very positive right now from your description), that is lovely. However, it is not our way of Shikantaza, which is a gentler, often shorter sitting of just being.

    Sorry that I cannot be more helpful. Hopefully it will all stay positive. But if there is any change, you need to let me know. In such case I can introduce you to someone who can provide better guidance.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-10-2017, 12:29 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Oheso
      Member
      • Jan 2013
      • 294

      #3
      Jundo sensei, are you saying 30-60 mins is too long for a person to sit shikantaza by him or her self?

      Gassho, -0

      s.td.
      Last edited by Oheso; 05-09-2017, 04:48 PM.
      and neither are they otherwise.

      Comment

      • Jyukatsu
        Member
        • Nov 2015
        • 283

        #4
        My question too; I regularly sit for this length and find it deeply nourishing so am confused by your comment.
        Please clarify.

        Gassho,
        Jyūkatsu
        sat today ( for 45 minutes )
        柔 Jyū flexible
        活 Katsu energetic

        Comment

        • Meian
          Member
          • Apr 2015
          • 1712

          #5
          Originally posted by Jundo
          Hi Kim,

          It sounds very positive right now. But I do not usually encourage such long and deep sitting around here. It sounds like it is pleasant for you right now, but it can be very powerful and easily go out off balance too. If there is any sign of change in yuor emotions, you need an in person teacher for that, and I do not want anyone to advise you from here on such sitting.

          If it is working for you now (and it sounds very very positive right now from your description), that is lovely. However, it is not our way of Shikantaza, which is a gentler, often shorter sitting of just being.

          Sorry that I cannot be more helpful. Hopefully it will all stay positive. But if there is any change, you need to let me know. In such case I can introduce you to someone who can provide better guidance.

          Gassho, Jundo

          I will, Jundo - I am grateful for your concern and guidance.

          Gassho
          Kim
          Sat today
          鏡道 |​ Kyodo (Meian) | "Mirror of the Way"
          visiting Unsui
          Nothing I say is a teaching, it's just my own opinion.

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 41220

            #6
            I have recently increased my sitting practice - sitting for longer periods, "going deeper" (for lack of better terminology), and experiencing various mental states while sitting. My sessions are not long, only 30-60 minutes - but that is long for me.
            Dear All,

            I am going to apologize here. I have a fever and I believe I somehow misread this message of "longer periods, going deeper ... experiencing various mental states"! Wow! The eyes play tricks.

            I am off to the doctors now, but I will try again better later today.


            Cough cough gassho, J

            Sattoday in bed
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Jakuden
              Member
              • Jun 2015
              • 6141

              #7
              Originally posted by Jundo
              Dear All,

              I am going to apologize here. I have a fever and I believe I somehow misread this message of "longer periods, going deeper ... experiencing various mental states"! Wow! The eyes play tricks.

              I am off to the doctors now, but I will try again better later today.


              Cough cough gassho, J

              Sattoday in bed
              Feel better Jundo! I noticed you were coughing during the Zazenkai the other day. Sending Metta and virtual chicken soup [emoji501]
              Gassho
              Jakuden
              SatToday


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

              Comment

              • Oheso
                Member
                • Jan 2013
                • 294

                #8
                may you be healthy, and at ease in your infirmities! (but mostly healthy)

                gassho, -0

                st.d.
                and neither are they otherwise.

                Comment

                • Jakuden
                  Member
                  • Jun 2015
                  • 6141

                  #9
                  Originally posted by allwhowander
                  I have recently increased my sitting practice - sitting for longer periods, "going deeper" (for lack of better terminology), and experiencing various mental states while sitting. My sessions are not long, only 30-60 minutes - but that is long for me.

                  I tend to approach life in general in a rather methodical manner (I observe and learn from my observations, then see what else I can apply it to, observe, learn, repeat), and I've noticed a few things resulting from my practice.

                  My overall energy has increased - this was unexpected. After all, "sitting" - wouldn't that make one more tired? As a sedentary practice - yet the opposite is true. It appears to have an energizing effect, to the point of insomnia sometimes if I do it at the wrong time (an odd "alert" state at unexpected times). Increased mental awareness, clarity, calm, physical energy, more self-control (to an extent), etc. Leaves me "buzzing" sometimes?

                  A sense of deep calm combined with a heightened state of awareness - interesting and somewhat new experience for me. I have experienced this before, but completely by accident, more like a dream-state before (don't know how I got there, just happened), but this seems to be happening with longer sitting periods and possibly deeper meditative states? Not sure. Just seems connected.

                  Stuff that used to bother me, isn't bothering me as much. Or it may still bother me initially, but quickly falls away after I consider it, then realize - it's irrelevant, or I find a better way to handle it and let it drop. Thus - stress level is decreasing. Another unexpected result that seems connected.

                  Also - as I noticed last night, it is becoming easier for me to sit, and then "sit" - futz around less, and go deeper with less struggle. It's not all roses, but it's not the struggle that it was. Not sure how to explain that was, or to say that it is easy. My body still rebels on me, but then sometimes I feel that drop as well. So it also takes me a moment to reorient myself to my surroundings if there is an interruption, and I'm not sure if that is a problem. I don't fall asleep, but my mind goes very quiet and "in retreat" ...... I am finding that regular exercise is helping to counteract the physical demands of sitting.

                  Sorry, I do not have a language for this, so what I am saying might not make any sense.

                  I personally think all of this is connected in some way to my longer sitting sessions. It's an interesting experience, considering the recent changes in my life circumstances, and what my practice is now enabling me to handle. I'm both adding *more* to my schedule (longer sitting sessions, more practice) and reducing my stress response and anxiety levels at the same time. Counterintuitive, in a way - but fascinating at the same time.

                  This is probably documented somewhere, but I have not researched it.

                  Gassho
                  Kim
                  Sat today
                  Hi Kim,
                  I can relate to the experiences you describe here.... over time, though, I find that there is a cycle of "oh it's all coming together and wonderful" and "bah humbug today sucks and I don't want to sit but I'm going to do it anyway."
                  So even as the benefits of practice manifest as things like improved concentration and coping, at the same time there is no need to improve concentration or coping... there's just the mind trying to explain and categorize that which needs no explanation.
                  Ok that's probably confusing too but I am not sick so I have no excuse [emoji23]
                  Gassho
                  Jakuden
                  SatToday



                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                  Comment

                  • Mp

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jundo
                    Dear All,

                    I am going to apologize here. I have a fever and I believe I somehow misread this message of "longer periods, going deeper ... experiencing various mental states"! Wow! The eyes play tricks.

                    I am off to the doctors now, but I will try again better later today.


                    Cough cough gassho, J

                    Sattoday in bed
                    Feel better Jundo and enjoy your horizontal bed zazen. =)

                    Gassho
                    Shingen

                    s@today

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 41220

                      #11
                      Hi Guys,

                      Well, I am back from the doctor with a bag of pills and a small case of walking pneumonia. Fortunately, looks like they caught it early.

                      Jakuden said what I should have said ...

                      Originally posted by Jakuden
                      Hi Kim,
                      I can relate to the experiences you describe here.... over time, though, I find that there is a cycle of "oh it's all coming together and wonderful" and "bah humbug today sucks and I don't want to sit but I'm going to do it anyway."
                      So even as the benefits of practice manifest as things like improved concentration and coping, at the same time there is no need to improve concentration or coping... there's just the mind trying to explain and categorize that which needs no explanation.
                      Yes, this practice is much like the weather, more cycles than a oneway-street. One day can be all sunny and groovy, and the next day cold and drizzly.

                      So, even though now day by day it feels more and more like ...


                      My overall energy has increased ... A sense of deep calm combined with a heightened state of awareness ... Stuff that used to bother me, isn't bothering me as much ... easier for me to sit, and then "sit" - futz around less ...


                      ... still, tomorrow, don't be discouraged if you suddenly have many days that feel low energy, edgy. bothered. fuzzy and futzy! There may even be whole days and weeks like that, like during the rainy season.

                      What I can promise is that, as a long term trend, you will find yourself clearer and calmer, less bothered and less futzy.

                      Kind of like health too ... one day breathing clear, the next day cough cough.

                      Gassho, J

                      SatToday

                      Ps - Sitting 30 minutes, and sometimes even 60 minutes, is not in excess at all.
                      Last edited by Jundo; 05-10-2017, 07:29 AM.
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Kokuu
                        Dharma Transmitted Priest
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 6992

                        #12
                        Take it easy, Jundo, and feel better soon.

                        With metta
                        Kokuu
                        -sattoday-

                        Comment

                        • Eishuu

                          #13
                          Kim, I can relate to the deep relaxation...that's been happening to me recently. I've been surprised by the emotional dimension of sitting and the contentment that can well up. It's sounds like the longer sessions are working for you. I think the thing is not to get attached to the pleasant aspects of sitting. My sits are very much like the weather...I enjoy the sunny days when they come but also sit through thick fog and hurricanes often.

                          Hope you feel better soon Jundo! Pneumonia can be nasty. Glad they caught it early.

                          Gassho
                          Lucy
                          Sat today

                          Comment

                          • Mp

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jundo
                            Well, I am back from the doctor with a bag of pills and a small case of walking pneumonia. Fortunately, looks like they caught it early.
                            Good to hear, take it easy Jundo ... there is only one of you. =)

                            Gassho
                            Shingen

                            s@today

                            Comment

                            • Meian
                              Member
                              • Apr 2015
                              • 1712

                              #15
                              Thank you so much. ♡

                              Yes, I understand and agree with all of this - Jundo, Jakuden, Lucy, everyone - and my spiritual practice in general has always been this way as well (like the weather, great analogy, ups ands downs). What surprised me was that the "longer/deeper" seems to achieve states of being that previously I had reached completely by accident. Stuff like that fascinates me just from a scientific standpoint - why does it happen, can I duplicate it, what does it do? Even as i know that's not the point (no goal, no place to be, no state to reach), it is still my natural curiosity that makes me wonder how the brain works and how it heals itself also

                              But I hold no illusion that it will always be roses or easy - it hasn't been so far overall, and I don't expect this will change it. I also added other variables to the mix (increased exercise to mitigate the effects of longer periods of sitting, which is usually physically difficult/painful for me to tolerate), so I'm sure that is affecting it as well.

                              I very much appreciate all the feedback and advice, thank you so much ♡

                              Jundo, years ago I once worked through "walking pneumonia" - didn't realize i had it at the time (thought it was a bad cold) until i was so sick that my family forced me to seek medical attention and my doctor scolded me (I have asthma). Nasty stuff, glad you sought medical care. Take rest and get well. ♡

                              Gassho
                              Kim
                              Sat today

                              Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
                              鏡道 |​ Kyodo (Meian) | "Mirror of the Way"
                              visiting Unsui
                              Nothing I say is a teaching, it's just my own opinion.

                              Comment

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