Hara - The Gut Brain?

[Guest]

Hi Treeleafers,
I have a secret fascination with the Gut Brain/Gut-Brain-Axis.

My ears pricked up when Jundo mentioned in his beginner's video series the word Hara, mentioning it is a spot somewhere between belly button and pubic bone, and to place your hands there while sitting.
I also heard Zen Masters advise that "while sitting, fold your hands [in Cosmic Mudra] and imagine gently holding your brain in that spot" (I can't remember the exact statement, but it was along those lines).
Well, if that is not bringing Gut and Brain in line!
While Westeners seem to only very recently have discovered the Gut Brain, Hara was obviously well known in Zen circles hundreds of years ago (Question mark?!?), to a point where you can't answer Koans in the usual way, but have to "feel" the answer. (Or am I totally off track here? Input would be much appreciated!)

Where can I find more info on Hara, especially in Zen terms as opposed to medical papers please? Any book recommendations? Google results are meager, not necessarily by respectable sources unfortunately, full of esoteric connotations etc.

Gassho,
Fiona

SatToday

[Jundo]

Hmmm.

Scientists have recently discovered that our neurological system is actually more than brain and nerves, and there is a kind of "gut brain" that releases hormones and such in connection with the endocrine system.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/healthy_aging/healthy_body/the-brain-gut-connection

But, ya know, I don't think the "Hara" was really talking about that. The Hara (Tanden) derives from an old Chinese/Daoist belief in energy flows, perhaps closely connected to Chakra and such, that I simply do not believe has much basis in fact. Mostly an imagined belief from the days before folks had much understanding of physiology and modern medicine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hara_(tanden)

In the martial arts, it is closely connected to the "center of balance" of the body I understand. I sometimes use the term to mean "breathe deep from the diaphram -as if- from the Hara", but I do not believe that literally the breath travels down there somehow past the lungs. You will find A LOT on the internet on this ... from Reiki practitioners (baloney in my book apart from anecdotal claims and the real placebo effect) and the like. Most of it is Hara hogwash I feel.

http://skepdic.com/reiki.html

Sorry, no recommendation here.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jishin]

Hara - The Gut Brain?

I punch Jundo in the Hara. He says ouch and bends over gasping unable to breathe. He says my brain hurts!

There are serotonin receptors all over the body including brain and gut. I give Jundo Prozac and vomits and says I feel great!

[emoji4]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kokuu]

Hi Fiona

I agree with Jundo. The hara was seen as a seat of energy flow rather than part of the nervous system. There seems to be a great passion at the moment for attempting to align eastern thinking and western physiology such as correlating chakras with endocrine glands. I think that the gut - brain connection is a very interesting one and has implications for mental and physical illness. I am less sure that it has implications for spiritual practice.

The hara seems to be roughly were the human centre of gravity is, as well as being close to the diaphragm. As such, it seems reasonable to focus attention there when breathing.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Gaman]

Oooh...Just a Chakra thing with no scientific proof then. How disappointing. What does the line "hara shifu ra" refer to in the Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani then? Simply the abdomen?

SHO SAI MYO KICHJO DHARANI

NO MO SAN MAN DA MOTO NAN
OHA RA CHI KOTO SHA SONO NAN
TO JI TO EN GYA GYA GYA KI GYA KI UN NUN
SHIFU RA SHIFURA HARA SHIFU RA HARA SHIFU RA
CHISHU SA CHISHU SA SHUSHI RI SHUSHI RI
SOHA JA SOHA JA SEN CHIRI GYA SHIRI EI SOMO KO

Veneration to all Buddhas!
The incomparable Buddha-power that banishes suffering.
Om! The Buddha of reality, wisdom, Nirvana!
Light! Light! Great light! Great light!
With no categories, this mysterious power
Saves all beings; suffering goes, happiness comes, Swaha!

Thanks for your inputs,
Fiona

[Mp]

Hey Fiona,

Me too ... I agree with Jundo in knowing the Hara (Chi in Chinese and Long in Tibetan) to be a place of energy of the center of one's balance. I practice Aikido and we talk about the Hara being the place that we move from. But we see it as a center point, more like an axis, a place to move around or move forward/backward. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

Oooh...Just a Chakra thing with no scientific proof then. How disappointing. What does the line "hara shifu ra" refer to in the Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani then? Simply the abdomen?

SHO SAI MYO KICHJO DHARANI

NO MO SAN MAN DA MOTO NAN
OHA RA CHI KOTO SHA SONO NAN
TO JI TO EN GYA GYA GYA KI GYA KI UN NUN
SHIFU RA SHIFURA HARA SHIFU RA HARA SHIFU RA
CHISHU SA CHISHU SA SHUSHI RI SHUSHI RI
SOHA JA SOHA JA SEN CHIRI GYA SHIRI EI SOMO KO

Veneration to all Buddhas!
The incomparable Buddha-power that banishes suffering.
Om! The Buddha of reality, wisdom, Nirvana!
Light! Light! Great light! Great light!
With no categories, this mysterious power
Saves all beings; suffering goes, happiness comes, Swaha!

Thanks for your inputs,
Fiona

Ah. I also believe that the "SHO SAI MYO KICHJO DHARANI" (Auspicious Dharani For Averting Calamity) is basically an old hocus-pocus abracadabra magic spell meant to avert fires, broken legs and the like. We generally don't recite it around here, and I would like nothing better than to remove such superstition from Soto Zen.

That is just my belief. Many many Zen Sangha recite it because it is tradition, and they find their own modern interpretations for it. However, in point of fact, it is an old magic spell the recital of which was meant to, well, avert calamities. The English translation of the words, by the way, is not really what the words likely mean in Sanskrit, not even close. In fact, nobody knows what the Sanskrit sounds mean for the most part, and it was just the sound that packed the magic power (thus the "abracadabra" or "open sesame" is quite accurate). I believe that D.T. Suzuki and some other folks tried to stick an English translation on, but it was just his imagination of what the sounds might mean more than anything. Any original meaning is lost in the fog of history. So, I believe that nobody has much idea what "hara shifu ra" originally was (it is a Chinese-Japanese mispronunciation of the original Sanskrit anyway).

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

PS ^ The late great Daiho Loori found some significance in the Dharani even for modern times. He is better than me, I don't try.

The Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani, chanted everyday at the monastery, is part of the healing service. This chant is pure sounds, not words. There’s no translation for it. It is a sequence of sounds that dates back to Sanskrit sources, a series of linked mantras designed to create a healing state of consciousness. Sounds do that. “Auuummm…” creates a certain mind-set. “Yeeeeeppiii!” creates a very different kind of mind-set. In the Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani we invoke the healing mind. All the different voices of the sangha set up a resonance, a synergy. When the chanting is right on, it goes beyond sound. You can actually feel it. Simultaneously, the officiant is using mantras and mudras to create the same type of focus, to reinforce that connection, the harmony, the healing. That’s the great function being awakened.

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/C%20-%20Zen/Modern%20Teachers/John%20Daido%20Loori%20-%20Dharma%20Talks/Discourse%20It%20Just%20Can%92t%20Be%20Discussed.htm

Hmmmm. Perhaps. But the only sound I wish to make about this is a big Brooklyn rasberry ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3WSbLFvdF8

[Sekishi]

I think that the gut - brain connection is a very interesting one and has implications for mental and physical illness. I am less sure that it has implications for spiritual practice.

The hara seems to be roughly were the human centre of gravity is, as well as being close to the diaphragm. As such, it seems reasonable to focus attention there when breathing.

Hi Fiona,

My thinking is pretty well in line with what Kokuu, Jundo and others have said. I think in practice, finding balance and stability (literal and figurative) is key. Whether this is explained as placing the mind / attention on the hara, the tips of the fingers, in the upturned palms, or the tip of the nose (all instructions I've heard over the years), the function is similar.

That said, I have a family member who is obsessed with the "enteric nervous system" (perhaps the "gut brain" you are referring to) which is actually pretty neat (even if only tangentally related to actual practice). Humans have 500,000,000 neurons in our GI tract. That is "thinking with your gut"!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

[Kokuu]

Hi Sekishi

It is not just the nervous system part of the gut which is seemingly important but also the fact that the organisms that live there can change in response to what is happening in the body and mind as well as influencing them.

A recent study found that the number of beneficial gut flora were improved following exercise but people with my illness had a different effect with an increase in potentially harmful species such as Clostridium increasing post-exertion: http://www.prohealth.com/library/sho...fm?libid=22177

Giulia Enders' book Gut has been on my reading list for a while and I really should get around to it.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Getchi]

Just remember, the brain is simply an extension of the spinal column.

There is fundamentally no difference between thinking and stomach secretions.

Geoff.

SatToday.

[Hoko]

Just remember, the brain is simply an extension of the spinal column.

There is fundamentally no difference between thinking and stomach secretions.

Geoff.

SatToday.

Oddly enough this was a actually big thing for me in my zen practice. Call it an enlightenment or an "ah ha" moment but it hit me solidly and has stuck with me over the years.
I developed IBS in my 40's and it's irritating more than anything but it makes meditation exciting because I get to sit zazen with the pod of humpback whales singing from my insides!
It used to piss me off and I would try to make it stop by clenching my abdomen or shifting around but somewhere along the line I realized that there was a parallel between stomach noise and the random thoughts that came bubbling up in my head during zazen. Once I realized that there was really no difference I was better able to ignore both the thoughts AND the sounds. (Well, not "ignore" but "open the hands of thought" and just let them be).
Once I made that connection it wasn't too big a stretch to realize that the kids playing loudly downstairs, that damn dog across the street and the squirrels playing on the roof were all in the same category.
Insides, outsides, on the roof, downstairs, in your head or down in your guts. It's all one, baby. Groovy.
Gassho,
Hoko
#SatToday

[Jundo]

Oddly enough this was a actually big thing for me in my zen practice. Call it an enlightenment or an "ah ha" moment but it hit me solidly and has stuck with me over the years.
I developed IBS in my 40's and it's irritating more than anything but it makes meditation exciting because I get to sit zazen with the pod of humpback whales singing from my insides!
It used to piss me off and I would try to make it stop by clenching my abdomen or shifting around but somewhere along the line I realized that there was a parallel between stomach noise and the random thoughts that came bubbling up in my head during zazen. Once I realized that there was really no difference I was better able to ignore both the thoughts AND the sounds. (Well, not "ignore" but "open the hands of thought" and just let them be).
Once I made that connection it wasn't too big a stretch to realize that the kids playing loudly downstairs, that damn dog across the street and the squirrels playing on the roof were all in the same category.
Insides, outsides, on the roof, downstairs, in your head or down in your guts. It's all one, baby. Groovy.
Gassho,
Hoko
#SatToday

Sounds like a kind of Irritable Bowel Satori.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Shokai]

I've had tinnitus for a number of years. Started in my late teens probably. Every once in a while I would get ringing in my ears and after an hour or a few moments it would disappear. Working in the telephone industry enhanced this feature of my hearing to the point that I have had constant ringing for at least forty to fifty years. I can't remember when it became constant. However, Hoko has just reminded me that I actually don't hear ringing during zazen for at least twenty years now. In fact, this past Monday one of the members of the sitting group said that he was unable to experience his usual serenity during his zazen because of this ringing that has started up in his hearing. This started me wondering where the tinnitus goes. actually, earlier this evening while sitting I consciously looked and couldn't find it.

thank you and gassho,
sattoday

[Jundo]

I've had tinnitus for a number of years. Started in my late teens probably. Every once in a while I would get ringing in my ears and after an hour or a few moments it would disappear. Working in the telephone industry enhanced this feature of my hearing to the point that I have had constant ringing for at least forty to fifty years. I can't remember when it became constant. However, Hoko has just reminded me that I actually don't hear ringing during zazen for at least twenty years now. In fact, this past Monday one of the members of the sitting group said that he was unable to experience his usual serenity during his zazen because of this ringing that has started up in his hearing. This started me wondering where the tinnitus goes. actually, earlier this evening while sitting I consciously looked and couldn't find it.

thank you and gassho,
sattoday

Another Zazen miracle!

Lovely to know. I looked to see if any literature on this ... seems to be some connection in meditation research ...

http://www.hearingreview.com/2015/04/study-explores-mindfulness-based-tinnitus-stress-reduction/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/28357966/

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/07/27/138166813/rethinking-tinnitus-when-the-ringing-wont-stop-clear-your-mind

Gassho, J

SatToday