ATTENTION: Special Zazenkai SUNDAY April 30th with DAVID LOY

[Risho]

I really enjoyed the talk; it really helped to hammer home David's points about the 2 ways we tend to look at Buddhism and then avoid what appear to be compelling reasons to become more socially active. I did like how David mentioned that we need to address these issues without turning the opponents to a "they" or an "enemy"

Here's the problem I have, and I'm not sure if it's my hangup or what, but whenever I hear "As Buddhists, we..." or "How would a Buddhist view..", it sort of puts me off. I also don't care much for the cliche'd "Engaged Buddhism" tweetable tagline now. "Hey guys and gals let's put on our Buddhist costumes and capes and engage!" I don't mean to be difficult, but I like to discuss these types of things when they come up because it helps me to clarify my practice and see if what I'm saying is valid or if I'm just being "shitty". lol

I don't use this practice so that I can see the world as something, or to group myself into a bubble of like-minded thinkers. Rather I think this practice enriches our lives. I like to be around people with different perspectives. These problems are not Buddhist, Christian or what have you. These problems are human problems. I don't like labels like these personally because I don't think they are helpful. I think they just add unnecessary separation. For example, helping a homeless person is not a Buddhist trait, it's a human trait.

How would you cross the street as a Buddhist? I think it's nonsense. Rather, how does our practice help us live more helpful lives? And sometimes helping means not getting in the way. Sometimes, helping means to use precise language as opposed to emotional demagoguery, which is what a lot of so-called socially active groups and "documentaries" do. Whenever you hear the dramatic violins, you know it's an emotional advertisement.

I guess another issue I have is when I hear people saying there are a disproportionate number of Black and Hispanic people in prisons. While that is true, I think we have to be careful with that statement. What is its intent? Is the speaker trying to point out that the justice system is hopelessly racist and simply imprisons minorities on a whim? While I think there absolutely is racism in our society, I don't think the justice system is completely racist. It has racism, all societies do, but there is a danger with these "movements" to swing the pendulum to the other extreme, which is not helpful either - it just turns into violence and anger.

My point is that, and this may be David's as well, there are higher numbers of minorities in prison due to poverty levels. Violence and crime have been linked to poverty levels. So while again racism is a problem, I don't believe the entire police force is racist like the media would like to sensationalize, there additionally a problem with poverty, and that's what I did find interesting in this talk. How do we solve poverty? I have no idea. Will Buddhism help? I don't know; it certainly will not hurt.

That's really all - just some personal observations. I think with Zen nothing should be taken at face value, no matter how compelling the argument. As rational, thinking human beings, and myself personally, I really try to question everything I hear, read etc instead of just accepting things. Sometimes, this may put people off; that is not my intent. Rather I want to clarify factual information from emotional pseudo-truths.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jakuden]

I really enjoyed the talk; it really helped to hammer home David's points about the 2 ways we tend to look at Buddhism and then avoid what appear to be compelling reasons to become more socially active. I did like how David mentioned that we need to address these issues without turning the opponents to a "they" or an "enemy"

Here's the problem I have, and I'm not sure if it's my hangup or what, but whenever I hear "As Buddhists, we..." or "How would a Buddhist view..", it sort of puts me off. I also don't care much for the cliche'd "Engaged Buddhism" tweetable tagline now. "Hey guys and gals let's put on our Buddhist costumes and capes and engage!" I don't mean to be difficult, but I like to discuss these types of things when they come up because it helps me to clarify my practice and see if what I'm saying is valid or if I'm just being "shitty". lol

I don't use this practice so that I can see the world as something, or to group myself into a bubble of like-minded thinkers. Rather I think this practice enriches our lives. I like to be around people with different perspectives. These problems are not Buddhist, Christian or what have you. These problems are human problems. I don't like labels like these personally because I don't think they are helpful. I think they just add unnecessary separation. For example, helping a homeless person is not a Buddhist trait, it's a human trait.

How would you cross the street as a Buddhist? I think it's nonsense. Rather, how does our practice help us live more helpful lives? And sometimes helping means not getting in the way. Sometimes, helping means to use precise language as opposed to emotional demagoguery, which is what a lot of so-called socially active groups and "documentaries" do. Whenever you hear the dramatic violins, you know it's an emotional advertisement.

I guess another issue I have is when I hear people saying there are a disproportionate number of Black and Hispanic people in prisons. While that is true, I think we have to be careful with that statement. What is its intent? Is the speaker trying to point out that the justice system is hopelessly racist and simply imprisons minorities on a whim? While I think there absolutely is racism in our society, I don't think the justice system is completely racist. It has racism, all societies do, but there is a danger with these "movements" to swing the pendulum to the other extreme, which is not helpful either - it just turns into violence and anger.

My point is that, and this may be David's as well, there are higher numbers of minorities in prison due to poverty levels. Violence and crime have been linked to poverty levels. So while again racism is a problem, I don't believe the entire police force is racist like the media would like to sensationalize, there additionally a problem with poverty, and that's what I did find interesting in this talk. How do we solve poverty? I have no idea. Will Buddhism help? I don't know; it certainly will not hurt.

That's really all - just some personal observations. I think with Zen nothing should be taken at face value, no matter how compelling the argument. As rational, thinking human beings, and myself personally, I really try to question everything I hear, read etc instead of just accepting things. Sometimes, this may put people off; that is not my intent. Rather I want to clarify factual information from emotional pseudo-truths.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

I always like the way you turn things sideways, backwards, and shake em around to make sure they are what they claim to be, Risho. As you said, with Zen nothing need be taken at face value, if you look you will always find other perspectives to consider!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday [emoji854]


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[Seishin]

Risho

I see where you're coming from but would add that at least by practicing Buddhism we try to be more human and apply those traits you refer to do. Sadly too many keep moving in the opposite direction. Just MHO.

[Risho]

Thanks Jakuden and Toby. I really liked Mr. Loy's talk. I thought it was inspiring. I like the idea of an eco-bodhisattva. I'm paraphrasing, but what David said about how it hurts to watch the news or see things happen in the world, that really resonated.

These problems are vast, but we can solve them. I know it. I think sometimes we have to be creative, so it's pretty damned inspiring when people like him start up these movements. All we can do is try. I think little by little, we move and change. But we have to change our perspective as a culture. I don't know what the solution would be, which is also another cool point he brought up about the "don't know mind". I really think that is important.

The reason to me it is important is that these "problems" become overwhelming when I switch into expectation mode, but as Jundo says Gratitude (big G) is what we need. Gratitude is the ultimate counter to that. When I'm in expectation mode, I complain. When practicing Gratitude, I'm thankful. So that change alone I think is huge and we need "don't know mind" to counter that expectation. In a way expectations are sort of an insanity because it comes from a false premise that we know exactly what will happen based on something we've imagined. Anyway, enough of my rambling. lol

Very nice talk - many bows to David Loy for his work.

And many thanks for Jundo for making this happen.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Kaibo]

Thank you so much for this zazenkai with David Loy! After I watched it a few weeks ago I checked out David's website and saw that he would be in Australia soon. So I attended his workshop 'Awakening from the illusion of our separation' yesterday. It was great! If you get a chance to go to one of his workshops I can recommend it. While the topic might be nothing new to many of us, he has a very clear way of presenting his reasoning; very insightful discussions arose. From what I understand David's and Jundo's understanding of Buddhism align very well. Today's workshop will be about the topic of his Treeleaf talk 'Buddhism and the ecological challenge' - looking forward to it!

Gassho
Kaibo
Sat today

[Kaibo]

Today's workshop was really brilliant. It was very much about the topic of his Treeleaf talk. I would like to add two things:

- David and some workshop attendants pointed out that we can feel anger and grief about the ecological destruction. They mentioned Joanna Macy as a good source for dealing with that and turning the anger/grief into some form of positive energy.

- The most surprising part of his workshop was that he suggests that humans might have a special place in the universe (details here: http://davidloy.org/downloads/Loy%20...%20Special.pdf). I don't know yet what to think about that one. I think he has a very valid point there, but at first sight it sounds like human hubris. But he doesn't mean it in that way. I will need to read a bit more about that.

Gassho
Kaibo
Sat today

[Shugen]

Thank you Kaibo.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday


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[Jundo]

- The most surprising part of his workshop was that he suggests that humans might have a special place in the universe (details here: http://davidloy.org/downloads/Loy%20...%20Special.pdf). I don't know yet what to think about that one. I think he has a very valid point there, but at first sight it sounds like human hubris. But he doesn't mean it in that way. I will need to read a bit more about that.

Gassho
Kaibo
Sat today

Thank you for representing all of us!

We had a big discussion of this topic about the time David came here and we read his book, and I also believe that there is something more "afoot" to our mysterious appearance in time and space than the present "dice roll" view of natural events currently allows. I say that as a great skeptic regarding all kinds of pseudo-science and new agey hoo-hah. There are very good, alternative ways to look at our existence that do not conflict with any of the discoveries of science to date. David Loy believes so too.

See here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15207-New-Buddhist-Path-Implications-to-New-Evolutionary-Myth-PP-62-85&p=197018&viewfull=1#post197018

and

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15233-New-Buddhist-Path-A-New-Buddhist-Story-to-A-Pivotal-Stage-PP-86-104&highlight=anthropic

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Tairin]

The most surprising part of his workshop was that he suggests that humans might have a special place in the universe (details here: http://davidloy.org/downloads/Loy%20...%20Special.pdf). I don't know yet what to think about that one. I think he has a very valid point there, but at first sight it sounds like human hubris. But he doesn't mean it in that way. I will need to read a bit more about that.

Thank you for this pointer. Loy's message here is consistent with the theme to "Sapiens" by Yuval Noah Harari if you are interested. I don't think they really mean "special" as much as they mean "unique". We have a unique abilities when it comes to cognition and the ability to create civilization, technology, art etc. I am not sure that makes us special. We just are one of a myriad of creatures.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today