Chants and chanting

[michaelw]

It looks as though the Chanting Circle is no longer practicing. Are there any plans to revive it or better still any Treeleaf or other recommended recordings that I can download to chant along with while I learn them? I have our Heart Sutra and Sandokai versions from the chant book is there a Sino Japanese version of Sandokai arranged line by line or a marked-up version I can edit to put in that format ?

Gassho
MichaelW
satlah

[Shujin]

Hi Michael, I don't know of any plans to revive the Chanting Circle, although one of our other priests may have more information. I found a version of the Sandokai that seems to be based at least in part off of Soto-shu's liturgy, and attached it below. There's an audio version on YouTube, but I'm hesitant to recommend it. I don't really know if the pronunciation is correct...

Gassho,
Shujin
st/lah

LINK REMOVED by JUNDO

[michaelw]

Shujin
Many thanks.

Gassho
MichaelW
satlah

[Jundo]

Hi Michael,

There is no present plan to revive the Chanting Circle, although it would always be nice if there is some interest.

An interesting story about the Japanese Sandokai. The chanting version in Japanese is very constant and unchanging in beat and tone, with special accents that match long or extended syllables, in the Japanese style. So, Bernie Glassman spiced it up in English with an influence from ... Fiddler on the Roof (it is true! ). You can read about that more here:

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/weekly-daily-zazen-sitting-netcasts/about-our-treeleaf-chants/14932-about-the-identity-of-relative-and-absolute-sandokai

Here is the formal Japanese version ...
.

Another Soto priest has a somewhat more lyrical version ...
.

I removed the link that Shujin put as the translation was a bit unusual. Here is the official Japanese version from Sotoshu.

https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/sutra/pdf/04/05.pdf

Line by line, it matches the Soto-shu English version (a little differently worded from ours), so you can see what each sentence means, line by line ...

https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/sutra/pdf/04/05.pdf

You can follow along with the above video to see how the Japanese priest recites it.

Gassho, J
stlah

[michaelw]

Thanks for that.
The reason I asked for a Sino Japanese wrongly as it should have been romanji was to get away from those dreadful 'karaoke' versions that seem to hog the search engines. I thought if I could get recordings I could chant along whenever I had time.
This was further complicated by a HAL9000 AI CoPilot telling me that the version that starts 'Chikudo daisan no shin' is not Sandokai but a Soto temple version and the English version that starts 'The mind of the Great Sage of India is intimately conveyed west and east.' is a western poetic version. I was/am trying to find the romanji version of this?

Gassho
MichaelW
satlah

[Jundo]

'Chikudo daisan no shin' is not Sandokai but a Soto temple version and the English version that starts 'The mind of the Great Sage of India is intimately conveyed west and east.' is a western poetic version. I was/am trying to find the romanji version of this?

I am not sure what you might mean by this. Can you clarify?

Gassho, J
stlah

[Bion]

This was further complicated by a HAL9000 AI CoPilot telling me that the version that starts 'Chikudo daisan no shin' is not Sandokai but a Soto temple version and the English version that starts 'The mind of the Great Sage of India is intimately conveyed west and east.' is a western poetic version. I was/am trying to find the romanji version of this?

Gassho
MichaelW
satlah

Well, that's interesting. You can see in the Sotoshu Scriptures for daily practice that the English version starts with "The mind of the great sage..." and the Jap. transliteration available in the second half of the book is "Chikudo daisen no shin.." The Japanese text is 竺土大仙心 , which starts with 竺土 Chikudo which is classical chinese for bamboo land, or India, then 大仙 dai sen which is great sage, and then 心 shin, which is mind .. I'd say it's the same text

Gassho
sat lah

[Junsho]

Hi Michael,
Perhaps we could consider having occasional special sessions. I asked our Roshi to end this group due to lack of quorum, since I was the only one participating. However, if others are interested in practicing, we can discuss ways to make that happen from time to time, similar to the Oryoki group. For now, please feel free to reach out to me via message, and I will do my best to support you.

Gassho and deep bows.
SatLah

[Jundo]

I am not sure why, but the links to the Soto-shu version are a bit strange. So, here are the Japanese and English versions side by side ...

image.pngimage.png

image.pngimage.png
image.png

[Chikyou]

For the Heart Sutra in Japanese, there’s an app called Heart Sutra 365. I’m really enjoying it! I think it’s exactly what you’re looking for - available on both iPhone and Android.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[michaelw]

Ok a little more clarification via two unreliable sources AI and my memory.
The argument/discussion I had with AI was because the text I had downloaded via Shujin and the text AI was giving me did not match. A cut and paste of the first lines from Shujin copy resulted in AI saying that is not how Sandokai starts and gave another version. AI also states that Soto Shu has a long and a short version with one being an Eno led call response format. This is where things get way above my experience where AI starts to tell me that romanji(?) is not fixed(?) but depends on local use (dialect?) thus knowing Sandokai in one format may not be the same format used elsewhere. I just asked again and this is its response:

The opening line of the Sandōkai in rōmaji is traditionally rendered as:

“Daishō chinden seishi tōrai.”

A more expanded, commonly chanted version is:

“Chikudo daisen no shin, tōzai mitsuni aisu.”

Different Zen lineages use slightly different romanizations, but those are the standard forms you’ll hear in Sōtō liturgy.

Is one Chinese as opposed to Japanese?
To try and force AI to give what I wanted I tried to upload the Treeleaf version only to find AI would not accept it as it is copyrighted and the same also seems to apply to other versions so AI cannot access them.
Any way let calm return. I have what need for now and I can use our Treelaf recordings to chant along for Heart sutra in which ever format plus Sandokai in English.
Thanks everyone for your help.

Gassho
MichaelW
satlah

[Jundo]

Okay, long story short, and mystery partly solved I think. Here is the traditional Chinese version ... It is read top to bottom, right side to left:

image.png
The Kanji are identical to the Japanese version (except for small calligraphic differences between Japanese and Chinese, but otherwise the same Kanji.)

What is meant by two ways to chant it is (1) following Chinese grammar but with Japanese pronunciation, or (2) with both Japanese grammar and Japanese Pronunciation.

So, for example, if reading the first as if Chinese, but pronounced the Japanese way, it is ...

Chikudo daisen shin tōzai mitsu aifu

Adding the Japanese grammar elements (in parenthesis)

Chikudo daisen (no) shin, tōzai mitsu (ni) aifu (su)

To convey what is happening if it were English, in the first version as if Chinese ...

India Great Sage Mind East West Intimate Conveyed

... and in the second version , with Japanese grammar elements in () ...

India Great Sage ('s possessive) Mind (is) East West (to) Intimately conveyed

The difference is just whether it is chanted with or without the (in parenthesis) Japanese grammar elements. Frankly, the grammar elements do not change the meaning and, in fact, add clarity often missing from the very "short hand, abbreviated" nature of Chinese writing.

So, in that case, what is "Daishō chinden seishi tōrai?" NOTHING!

There is no way that any Kanji there is to be found in any portion of the Sandokai, in either Chinese or Japanese, including in ancient Japanese pronunciations, in any way even close to "Daishō chinden seishi tōrai." Furthermore, in the TOTALLY UNRELATED Pure Land scriptures, "Seishi torai" may refer to the arrival or descent of the Bodhisattva Seishi (Sanskrit: Mahāsthāmaprāpta) from the Pure Land to welcome a dying person. Daisho Chinden seems untraceable. An internet search finds nothing connecting "chinden" and the Sandokai in any way. Maybe Daisho could be Daisho 大疏 (meaning "A great Sutra commentary") and Chinden might be 展轉 (meaning "in succession" or "to revolve" something.) Nothing else even close.

Strikes me as an AI hallucination.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

PS - Two trivia facts: There is another, totally unrelated "Sandokai," a Taoist text on alchemy. Some people ponder if there is any relationship. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantong_qi) I don't think that "Daishō chinden seishi tōrai" is related to that one either.

Also, there is a long and short version of the Heart Sutra. The Tibetans chant the long version, which has an intro which sets the scene, and a big closing.

Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was dwelling in Rajagriha at Vulture Peak mountain, together with a great gathering of the sangha of monks and a great gathering of the sangha of bodhisattvas. At that time the Blessed One entered the samadhi that expresses the dharma called "profound illumination," and at the same time noble Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, while practicing the profound prajnaparamita

... GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA Thus, Shariputra, the bodhisattva mahasattva should train in the profound prajnaparamita. Then the Blessed One arose from that samadhi and praised noble Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, saying, "Good, good, O son of noble family; thus it is, O son of noble family, thus it is. One should practice the profound prajnaparamita just as you have taught and all the tathagatas will rejoice." When the Blessed One had said this, venerable Shariputra and noble Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, that whole assembly and the world with its gods, humans, asuras, and gandharvas rejoiced and praised the words of the Blessed One.

Thus concludes the Sutra of the Heart of Transcendent Knowledge

[Onsho]

Hi Michael,

There is no present plan to revive the Chanting Circle, although it would always be nice if there is some interest.

An interesting story about the Japanese Sandokai. The chanting version in Japanese is very constant and unchanging in beat and tone, with special accents that match long or extended syllables, in the Japanese style. So, Bernie Glassman spiced it up in English with an influence from ... Fiddler on the Roof (it is true! ). You can read about that more here:

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/weekly-daily-zazen-sitting-netcasts/about-our-treeleaf-chants/14932-about-the-identity-of-relative-and-absolute-sandokai

Here is the formal Japanese version ...
.

Another Soto priest has a somewhat more lyrical version ...
.

I removed the link that Shujin put as the translation was a bit unusual. Here is the official Japanese version from Sotoshu.

https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/sutra/pdf/04/05.pdf

Line by line, it matches the Soto-shu English version (a little differently worded from ours), so you can see what each sentence means, line by line ...

https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/sutra/pdf/04/05.pdf

You can follow along with the above video to see how the Japanese priest recites it.

Gassho, J
stlah

That first version gives me chills.... delightful.
The hiragana added to the second video is really handy too. These are great finds.

Gassho
Onsho
satlah

[Onki]

For the Heart Sutra in Japanese, there’s an app called Heart Sutra 365. I’m really enjoying it! I think it’s exactly what you’re looking for - available on both iPhone and Android.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

This is a great app!!

Gasshō,

On

sat/lah