Conceptual thinking

[Mujin]

I am reading , "The Teachings of Huang Po", and in it there is mention of stopping or getting rid of "conceptual thinking ". What does this refer to and how does one stop it? Many thanks for any responses.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

I am reading , "The Teachings of Huang Po", and in it there is mention of stopping or getting rid of "conceptual thinking ". What does this refer to and how does one stop it? Many thanks for any responses.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

Hi Mujin,

First, I should comment that, if you are reading the translation by John Blofield, it has been criticized in some quarters for being a bit overly romantic and idealized. Prof. Wright wrote a pretty good book on this, reviewed here for a taste:

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReviews/philosophical_huang_po.pdf

I am not sure that I have a complete answer for you. I will say that, in Soto Zen, we do not seek to stop all thoughts, let alone to be totally free of all thoughts. Rather, we avoid to be entangled in the analyzing, pondering, planning, judging mind, divided by self/other and breaking the world into countless names, labels and categories. I take that to mean "conceptual thought.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Bion]

I see Jundo's already responded, so take my comment as mere reflections of a friend on the path and nothing more. To me, conceptual thinking is the thinking that relies entirely upon fixed mental formations; the thinking that, through its functioning, solidifies inherently fluid notions. In other words, like Jundo said, the approach of always going with the judgments of things that we have established, as if they were their absolute values: self/not self, good/ bad, right/wrong, like/dislike, wanted/not wanted, necessary/not necessary, etc. You probably get the picture.

I think that to go beyond this kind of thinking means to have a malleable mind, one that sees clearly and is not completely deceived by its own creations. In my experience, it is precisely zazen that lets this mind come forth and strengthens it. To then return to daily tasks and to respond naturally to what is in front of us, to act from a place of sincerity, directly out of our awakened nature, beyond this "divided thinking", that is the heart of the matter.
My apologies for running a bit long and for speaking like I actually know anything.

Gassho
sat lah

[Jundo]

I see Jundo's already responded, so take my comment as mere reflections of a friend on the path and nothing more. To me, conceptual thinking is the thinking that relies entirely upon fixed mental formations; the thinking that, through its functioning, solidifies inherently fluid notions. In other words, like Jundo said, the approach of always going with the judgments of things that we have established, as if they were their absolute values: self/not self, good/ bad, right/wrong, like/dislike, wanted/not wanted, necessary/not necessary, etc. You probably get the picture.

I think that to go beyond this kind of thinking means to have a malleable mind, one that sees clearly and is not completely deceived by its own creations. In my experience, it is precisely zazen that lets this mind come forth and strengthens it. To then return to daily tasks and to respond naturally to what is in front of us, to act from a place of sincerity, directly out of our awakened nature, beyond this "divided thinking", that is the heart of the matter.
My apologies for running a bit long and for speaking like I actually know anything.

Gassho
sat lah

Bion's response is beautiful. I would only add one emphasis ...

As Bion said, we learn through this practice not to be so "caught" and tangled in conceptual thoughts ... my mine, me/you, liked/disliked, win/lose, this thing and that thing, right/wrong, beautiful and ugly ... and their rigidity and effects on our minds (e.g., my frustration when I don't get the thing I like and want to win.) Our minds become more malleable, flowing with conditions, accepting.

But there is the further leap ... as we drop away all borders and dichotomies all together ... all me/you, this/that and the other thing, now/then, good/bad ... and labels or categories ... ground, mountain, table, chair, person, fox, elephant, birth/death, yesterday/today/tomorrow etc. etc. EVERYTHING ... to sense and experience the interflowing and interidentical flowing Wholeness that is all things and each thing shining right through & beyond all notions of separate things. Such is liberation.

Then we can experience this world in which all the separate things, ups and downs, passing time ... AND the timeless interflowing and interidentical flowing Wholeness ... is/are all true at once, not two, two faces (that are infinite faces) of a no sided coin.

Of course, now I a trying to use concepual words and ideas to convey freedom for conceptual words and ideas! That is why Zen folks say that we should not just talk about these things, but should practice and experience the way in which the names, ideas, hard borders and even me/you and time soften or sometimes fully drop away. I believe that Huang Po was pointing right at that (beyond a pointer or that to point at! )

Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

PS - Thus Huang Po says, in the very first lines of his treatise (McRae translation) ...

The master said to [Pei] Xiu: The Buddhas and all the sentient beings are only the One Mind—there are no other dharmas [separate phenomena]. Since beginningless time, this mind has never been generated and has never been extinguished, is neither blue nor yellow, is without shape and without characteristic, does not belong to being and nonbeing, does not consider new or old, is neither long nor short, and is neither large nor small. It transcends all limitations, names, traces, and correlations. It in itself—that’s it! To activate thoughts is to go against it! It is like space, which is boundless and immeasurable.

and

No-mind refers to the absence of all [states of] mind. The essence of suchness is unmoving like wood or stone within and unhindered like space without. It is without subject and object, without location, without characteristic, and without gain or loss.

Master Dogen might add, however, that our mission is not to stay with any such "One Mind" or "No Mind"... because the "One/No Mind" is actually the countless things, endless minds, both blue and yellow, all shapes and characteristics, large and small. There is no "One/No Mind" that need be apart from all the "imitations, names, traces, and correlations" of the world. However, the wise see this, while the ignorant do not.

[DanielxSwish]

Greetings,
Here is what comes to my mind. It is from Master Dogen's 300 Koans. Case 129 (Someone correct me if I am wrong):

Priest Yaoshan was sitting in meditation, and a monk asked him, "What do you think about when you are sitting like that?" Yaoshan said, "I think not thinking." The monk said, "How do you think not thinking?" Yaoshan said, "Non-thinking."

Just something to "think about"


Gassho,
Daniel
satLAH

[Jundo]

Greetings,
Here is what comes to my mind. It is from Master Dogen's 300 Koans. Case 129 (Someone correct me if I am wrong):

Priest Yaoshan was sitting in meditation, and a monk asked him, "What do you think about when you are sitting like that?" Yaoshan said, "I think not thinking." The monk said, "How do you think not thinking?" Yaoshan said, "Non-thinking."

Just something to "think about"


Gassho,
Daniel
satLAH

Just an interpretation (and perhaps more conceptual thinking of my own ) but I very much believe that "thinking non-thinking" is what happens when the "one/no mind" of Huang Po meets all the thoughts, names, categories, judgements of this world formed between our ears. Then, the result is the timeless interflowing and interidentical flowing Wholeness that is ALSO time and all things, not one not two, both sides of a no-sided coin.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Gyoshin]

Hi! Take the following for what it is: the idea of a beginner. I'm in no way an expert on this.
In zen I feel there are many iterations of the same finger pointing at the same moon. There are many phrases... some are easy, some are difficult, some defy all logic (koans); all point at the same mind. I do not think a Rinzai master points at a different mind than a Soto master. Therefore, when some kind of iteration of this "finger" appears, I find it pretty useful to ask myself "yeah, but what is this phrase pointing to?" And usually that point is "mind before discrimination". But mind before discrimination includes both good and bad, both right and wrong...in short, it contains all phenomena. All phenomena appear, stay a little while, then disappear. Thinking is something like this, just a phenomenon. So when a phrase like "cut off all thinking" appears, I don't interpret it as "stop thinking", but as "cut off all [attachment to] thinking" so it can be seen as just another phenomenon that appears in the scenery of our life. It is impossible to stop all thinking, because as Uchiyama Roshi points out, thoughts are just secretions of our brain, just like acid is a secretion of our stomach; it would be very dangerous if we made our stomach stop its natural function...so maybe we cannot stop thoughts, but we can let them go!

[to anyone] if something I said is just wrong please feel free to correct

Gassho,
Alex

satlah

[Hoseki]

I am reading , "The Teachings of Huang Po", and in it there is mention of stopping or getting rid of "conceptual thinking ". What does this refer to and how does one stop it? Many thanks for any responses.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

Hi!

I have a slightly different take, likely due to what I'm currently reading. I think it might mean not to getting ride of conceptual thinking but to stop reifying our concepts. Our default way of encountering objects and ideas suggest they are independent discrete entities. Letting go of that process would still leave you with your thinking and your ability to navigate the world but you would be less likely to grasp at things as you have an intuitive understanding of their impermanence.

I think it could also mean we should stop philosophizing. Stop looking for some fundamental elements (metaphysical) that provide an underpinning for a broader understanding of the world.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Hoshuku]

Hi!

I have a slightly different take, likely due to what I'm currently reading. I think it might mean not to getting ride of conceptual thinking but to stop reifying our concepts. Our default way of encountering objects and ideas suggest they are independent discrete entities. Letting go of that process would still leave you with your thinking and your ability to navigate the world but you would be less likely to grasp at things as you have an intuitive understanding of their impermanence.

I think it could also mean we should stop philosophizing. Stop looking for some fundamental elements (metaphysical) that provide an underpinning for a broader understanding of the world.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

Thanks Hoseki - I feel this is more realistic let alone anything else.

Bows
Hoshuku
Satlah

[Douglas]

Hi!

I have a slightly different take, likely due to what I'm currently reading. I think it might mean not to getting ride of conceptual thinking but to stop reifying our concepts. Our default way of encountering objects and ideas suggest they are independent discrete entities. Letting go of that process would still leave you with your thinking and your ability to navigate the world but you would be less likely to grasp at things as you have an intuitive understanding of their impermanence.

I think it could also mean we should stop philosophizing. Stop looking for some fundamental elements (metaphysical) that provide an underpinning for a broader understanding of the world.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

That last part resonates with me. That being said, people have fun and enjoy philosophizing. It seems to me like the same way a dog enjoys chasing their own tail!

[Zenkon]

As someone who spent a long time trying to stop thinking, only to find that I was only "thinking" about "not thinking", I offer my experience. When I sit, I have this ongoing conversation in my head. Like a pin ball game, the conversation jumps from topic to topic. Trying to corral and dampen each conversation is futile. More just re-appear. Plus, this is the wrong approach. Sitting is not a wrestling match with your thoughts. Here's my "How-To Guide" of what works for me:
1. relax, don't try to force anything.
2. focus on your breathing. Don't count breaths. Just focus on breathing in, breathing out
3. thoughts and feelings will arise. Just let them. Acknowledge them with a "Hmmm, a thought" and let them go. Don't chase after them. Don't comment on them. Don't have a conversation about them. Just let-them-go.
4. return your focus to your breathing. over and over again. That's it. Rinse and repeat. Keep doing this and amazing things happen.

Gassho

Zenkon
sat/lah

[Jundo]

As someone who spent a long time trying to stop thinking, only to find that I was only "thinking" about "not thinking", I offer my experience. When I sit, I have this ongoing conversation in my head. Like a pin ball game, the conversation jumps from topic to topic. Trying to corral and dampen each conversation is futile. More just re-appear. Plus, this is the wrong approach. Sitting is not a wrestling match with your thoughts. Here's my "How-To Guide" of what works for me:
1. relax, don't try to force anything.
2. focus on your breathing. Don't count breaths. Just focus on breathing in, breathing out
3. thoughts and feelings will arise. Just let them. Acknowledge them with a "Hmmm, a thought" and let them go. Don't chase after them. Don't comment on them. Don't have a conversation about them. Just let-them-go.
4. return your focus to your breathing. over and over again. That's it. Rinse and repeat. Keep doing this and amazing things happen.

Gassho

Zenkon
sat/lah

Lovely.

Our way is like watching the pinball game from the sidelines without ourselves grabbing the flippers or putting in more coins. Just let the balls (of thought) drain away of their own accord without our intervention.
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Gassho, J
stlah

[Hoseki]

That last part resonates with me. That being said, people have fun and enjoy philosophizing. It seems to me like the same way a dog enjoys chasing their own tail!

Sorry for the lateness in replying. I just wanted to add that I also enjoy philosophizing. In a lot of ways it's like play for me. But like most games there is a time to put them away (at least for a little while.)

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Hosui]

…But like most games there is a time to put them away (at least for a little while.)

Gassho,
Hoseki
sattoday/lah

All things in moderation, of course. Though speaking as a semi-professional academic philosopher, I want to give a shout out to that particular philosophic part of my being, along with all the other parts of my being, as well as to non-discrimination generally,, and not forgetting the universal mind


Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah