New book: Buddha, Socrates, and Us, by Stephen Batchelor

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 44400

    #16
    Again, knowing Mr. Batchelor's methods in the past, and his tendency to twist history and to find doubtful parallels to support the conclusions he desires (that Buddha was primarily an ethics driven rational and worldly figure uninterested in metaphysics), I remain skeptical until I hear what actual historians and philosophy specialists would say regarding his conclusions. So far, I am not finding many reviews, but this one writer offers a counterpoint:

    As I previously wrote about ‘The Art of Solitude’, I found this book much more convincing as a work of art than as a work of philosophy. That has remained the case, although there was a lot more discussion of philosophers in this book. What makes it convincing from the point of view of art, or indeed from that of inspiration, is the meaningful links he sets up for our attention: for instance, between the Buddha’s response to human suffering and Greek tragedy, or between the Buddha’s Middle way and the incremental model of love as practice offered (with Socrates as mouthpiece) in Plato’s Symposium. This book is worth reading as a free-roaming jeu d’esprit on Buddhism and various ancient Greek sources of inspiration.

    However, if one interprets this book as a work of philosophy, one expects some sort of reasonably detailed critical case to be made, and there one will be disappointed. Not only are the ideas not followed through in much detail, but anticipation of the most obvious critical voices is absent. I have come to expect this, after reading quite a few of Stephen’s books, but it bothers me as creating a basic incoherence in this book particularly, as it is largely about philosophy.

    Philosophy, for me, is a practice: a practice of critique, in which one separates the wheat from the chaff in a philosophical theory or argument. This book clearly advocates that practice, and shows more of the fruits of Stephen’s application of it to the Buddhist tradition (already discussed more fully in his After Buddhism, reviewed here); but its treatment of Greek and other Western philosophy is, in contrast, brief and superficial, showing no sign of such practice.

    For example, we get a brief account of Plato’s cave which presents it merely as an analogy to illustrate delusion, without even any mention that this is overwhelmingly regarded as the central narrative of rationalism, and that the ‘delusions’ it presents us as stuck in are not those of abstracted belief, but on the contrary those of immediate experience. It is hard to imagine anything more directly opposed to the use of mindfulness and direct appreciation of experience that one finds in the Buddhist practice Stephen advocates. Plato’s cave has supported millennia of conspiracy theorizing, with its one-sided abuse of sceptical argument to support the conviction that everyone else is deluded but we see the truth.

    As another example, in the book’s brief treatment of Heidegger, we not only get a similarly bland, selective interpretation, but also a claim that Heidegger was trying to ‘overturn metaphysics’ (p.211), which in my understanding is also inaccurate, given that Heidegger was obsessed with ‘being’ and spent his time trying to reconstruct metaphysics. With not even a mention of the huge difficulties around the philosophies of such figures, there is no encouragement to exercise the very dialectical skills that Stephen seems to be advocating.

    The issue of treating philosophy philosophically, along with that of not getting hung up on historical claims, also come together in some questions that remain for me about the treatment of Socrates. Stephen recognizes and discusses the different sources of information about Socrates, and particularly that our chief source of information, Plato, offers contradictory views of him. The Socrates we’re presented with in Plato’s early dialogues is the open but persistent enquirer who claims to ‘know nothing’, but the one in the later dialogues, by contrast, is a mouthpiece for Plato’s rationalism. The dialectical enquiry in the subsequent later dialogues is focused only on criticism of any reliance on experience, whilst Platonic rationalism is presented uncritically to an audience that accepts it as ultimate wisdom. In my view the point of transition seems to happen in the Meno, where at one point Socrates quite rapidly shifts from gadfly, getting others to clarify their views, to sage, expounding the doctrine of innate knowledge (and very unconvincingly trying to prove it by getting a slave boy to solve a geometry problem).

    The problem I find in Stephen’s account of this is not a failure to recognize that difference in principle, but rather a failure to confront us more fully with the sizeable shadow of Socrates in his later Platonic version, or to engage with any of the issues of sorting the earlier ‘Socratic’ Socrates from the later ‘Platonic’ Socrates. How do we know that the earlier Socrates depicted by Plato is the historic one, and the later one not? Stephen makes interesting use of the limited material we have about Socrates in Xenophon, which he finds consistent with the Socratic Socrates rather than the Platonic one. But how do we know that, for instance, the two writers did not present Socrates inconsistently because he was inconsistent? The historical claims about Socrates, as in Stephen’s interpretation of the Buddha, rest on a scholarly interpretation that is likely to be immediately contested as soon as you ask any other scholars about it. LINK
    So ... as I seek to remain open minded and rational ... the jury remains out.

    Gassho, J
    stlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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    • Heishi
      Member
      • Jun 2025
      • 41

      #17
      This is an interesting discussion, especially in light of the teaching yesterday during the monthly Zazenkai. I used to think that it was important to find the "original" teaching, the historically accurate teaching, of Buddha or Jesus because one wants to base their life on truth and don't want to be fooled. I don't do this anymore because all teachings have a truth behind them without going into the historicity of the teaching. My husband was attracted to the youtube presentations of Dr. Richard Carrier and Dr. Ammon Hillman (Dr. Hillman is extremely controversial his translation of the book of Mark) on the controversy of what Jesus actually taught, or even if Jesus existed, based on the what can be gleaned from the original greek writings -- of which the earliest dates back to ~100 to 200 AD at best in terms of actual texts on paper. Yet, in getting carries away with "what is actually true that can be proven by the texts" kind of misses the point of the actual spiritual truths from Christianity which one can apply to one's life today. There's a Tibetan Buddhist teaching that Bodhidharma met Milarepa (which would mean around ~1100 AD) and that Milarepa tried to "fool" Bodhidharma by transforming himself into a flower....which Bodhidharma kicked the flower and told Milarepa to stop being silly. I think the point of the story, which isn't probably historically accurate, is that one doesn't need to exhibit miraculous powers as a sign of enlightenment. As Buddhism "moves" from culture to culture, the ways and means of expressing the truth will change to fit each culture's ways of expression.

      Gassho, Katherine
      satlah

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 44400

        #18
        Originally posted by KatherineS
        This is an interesting discussion, especially in light of the teaching yesterday during the monthly Zazenkai. I used to think that it was important to find the "original" teaching, the historically accurate teaching, of Buddha or Jesus because one wants to base their life on truth and don't want to be fooled. I don't do this anymore because all teachings have a truth behind them without going into the historicity of the teaching. My husband was attracted to the youtube presentations of Dr. Richard Carrier and Dr. Ammon Hillman (Dr. Hillman is extremely controversial his translation of the book of Mark) on the controversy of what Jesus actually taught, or even if Jesus existed, based on the what can be gleaned from the original greek writings -- of which the earliest dates back to ~100 to 200 AD at best in terms of actual texts on paper. Yet, in getting carries away with "what is actually true that can be proven by the texts" kind of misses the point of the actual spiritual truths from Christianity which one can apply to one's life today. There's a Tibetan Buddhist teaching that Bodhidharma met Milarepa (which would mean around ~1100 AD) and that Milarepa tried to "fool" Bodhidharma by transforming himself into a flower....which Bodhidharma kicked the flower and told Milarepa to stop being silly. I think the point of the story, which isn't probably historically accurate, is that one doesn't need to exhibit miraculous powers as a sign of enlightenment. As Buddhism "moves" from culture to culture, the ways and means of expressing the truth will change to fit each culture's ways of expression.

        Gassho, Katherine
        satlah
        I agree with this so much!

        By the way, I think that all Buddhist teachers since the Buddha are guilty of "remaking" Buddha (or Dogen or Milarepa or any of the old teachings and ancestors) in the same way as Mr. Batchelor. This is especially the case as ancient, Iron Age and Medieval teachings came to new cultures (China, Japan, the West) and new times.

        I plead "guilty as charged" to having to do the same quite often when, for example, I must interpret a 1500 year old Chinese treatise by Bodhidharma for working and married people in 2025 New Jersey! Fortunately, much of the wisdom there is timeless, and suffering sentient beings in any age are still suffering sentient beings, but it requires reinterpretation for new values and circumstances. It is unavoidable. It is a fool's errand to try to find the "original" teachings and "real Buddha/Jesus" in either Buddhism or Christianity. Our Suttas (let alone our Sutras) present many faces of "Buddha" preaching often very different things. The written texts are by varied authors, most are largely ahistorical if not downright fictional, plus highly edited and reinterpreted through the centuries by many varied commentarial traditions.

        Fortunately, however, there are certain core teachings that link us all together, and survive in any culture and time. What are they? For example, Dukkha, "non-self," impermanence, plus the possibility of liberation via transcending our little self. I would add the "Emptiness" of all phenomena, "Original/Buddha Nature", and the vision of deep interpenetration and interidentity of the Huayan and many other Mahayana teachings, although they may be later visions and it is arguable how much of those perspectives are found in the earliest traces of Indian Buddhism (at the very least, they are good blossomings of the "Hinayana" traditions, much like Einstein is a further expression of Newton, or Thelonius Monk plays the same keys, notes and chords as Mozart and it is all good music. One would be foolhardy to strip away Einstein to find the "real physics" in Newton, or to ignore Thelonius in search of the True Piano.) A few traditions have changed greatly in modern Buddhism, such as in the discounting by many of "literal rebirth" teachings, but I do not think that takes away from the other core teachings. I supported the early Stephen Batchelor in his speaking up for that change.

        My hesitancy with Stephen is that he goes too far, too extreme, throwing out the "Baby Buddha with the Bath Water" in trying to turn the early Buddha into little more than an ethicist and psychologist. His claim that he is finding the original Buddha by leaving aside anything "metaphysical," or transcendent, especially if a teaching of the later Mahayana or shared with other non-Buddhist philosophies and religions, thus leaves out some of our most powerful and relevant teachings. It is also interesting to me that he has recently turned to ayahuasca and other psychedelics to reencounter that transcendence which he struggles to find in Buddhism itself. (I also sometimes scratch my head at Stephen's presentation of Zen in some of his books: Although he was a Zen monk for some years, I put that down to his experience with Zen almost exclusively in a Korean monastic Rinzai lineage with which he became disenchanted, for his descriptions rarely seem to including anything resembling Japanese Soto traditions which he seems rarely to mention.)

        So, in summary, I just think that he goes too far, and that his methods for getting to his "historical" conclusions and "original Buddhism" are questionable.

        Gassho, J
        stlah

        PS - My pal Bernard Faure has a wonderful book on the "1001" faces of Buddha, many interpretations changing through the ages, all relevant.

        Many biographies of the Buddha have been published in the last 150 years, and all claim to describe the authentic life of the historical Buddha. This book, written by one of the leading scholars of Buddhism and Japanese religion, starts from the opposite assumption and argues that we do not yet possess the archival and archaeological materials required to compose such a biography: All we have are narratives, not facts. Yet traditional biographies have neglected the literary, mythological, and ritual elements in the life of the Buddha. Bernard Faure aims to bridge this gap and shed light on a Buddha that is not historical but has constituted a paradigm of practice and been an object of faith for 2,500 years.

        The Thousand and One Lives of the Buddha opens with a criticism of the prevalent historicism before examining the mythological elements in a life of the Buddha no longer constrained by an artificial biographical framework. Once the search for the “historical Buddha” is abandoned, there is no longer any need to limit the narrative to early Indian stories. The life—or lives—of the Buddha, as an expression of the creative imaginations of Buddhists, developed beyond India over the centuries. Faure accordingly shifts his focus to East Asia and, more particularly, to Japan. Finally, he examines recent developments of the Buddha’s life in not only Asia but also the modern West and neglected literary genres such as science fiction.
        https://uhpress.hawaii.edu/title/the...of-the-buddha/
        .
        Last edited by Jundo; 11-09-2025, 01:24 AM.
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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        • Tensei
          Member
          • Dec 2016
          • 110

          #19
          Originally posted by Jundo

          Thank you. As the video mentions, we can actually see some Greek influence clearly in Buddhist art as well, including the art of Japan. In Ghandaran art, which influenced the Chinese and Japanese statues which we know and cherish like this Japanese Amida Buddha ...
          .
          image.png


          ... people may be surprised when it is pointed out that there is seemingly a very strong Greek influence. Ghandara was on the Silk Road. Do you see that the Kesa Robe he wears, with its straight liines, is a toga, and the idealized body and hair of the Buddha and other elements are influenced by Greco-Roman statuary? It is true.
          .
          image.png


          It is even seen in the giant statue of Amida Buddha in the town next to Treeleaf Tsukuba, which I visited last week with Soka and Joy ...
          .
          More on Greco-Buddhist art here ...



          Gassho, J
          stlah
          I've never thought to look at the draping of the robes, but now that you point it out they do seem very toga-esque! I wonder how frequently Amida is presented with that style of robe. Maybe the Hellenica World page will have some info - thank you for sharing it!

          Gassho,
          Tegan
          satlah

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