Is 'thinking of not thinking' 'opening the hand of thought'?

[alecs]

Just as the title suggests, how are these two concepts related? Is "thinking of not thinking" an elaborate and perhaps more precise way of expressing the idea of "opening the hand of thought" / "Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish" (Zuochan-yi)?

Maybe I'm just mixing things up, so I thought I'd ask here!

Gassho,
Alex
sat/Lah

P.S. I'm working on the propic... I exist, I swear!!

[Simon]

Yes I believe they are the same thing. Different words pointing to the same truth. I personally feel that "opening the hand of thought" is a very precise metaphor for what we "do" when we practice. To me, "being aware of thoughts" has always felt like too much doing, and more aligned with a vipassana-style meditation.

The point is that some ways of describing it might resonate with you more than others, and that’s totally fine. Ultimately, though, you’ll have to figure it out for yourself.

Gassho,
satlah

[Jundo]

Just as the title suggests, how are these two concepts related? Is "thinking of not thinking" an elaborate and perhaps more precise way of expressing the idea of "opening the hand of thought" / "Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish" (Zuochan-yi)?

Maybe I'm just mixing things up, so I thought I'd ask here!

Hi Alex,

Here is my understanding.

First, Dogen in his rejected the phrase "Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish" from the Zuochan-yi, a meditation manual written by someone else from which Dogen borrowed a very few sections, but not that (although he kept it in an early version of Fukanzazengi, he dropped it in his later version). You can read more about that here (LINK). Instead, Dogen replaced those words with the very different, "Think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Beyond-thinking. This is the essential art of zazen. The zazen I speak of is not meditation practice. It is simply the Dharma gate of peace and bliss, the totally culminated awakening." We do not make effort to "be aware" of thoughts in Shikantaza. Rather, we just let them be, "don't mess with em," and "pay em no nevermind" (if you are familiar with those Americanisms.)

"Opening the hand of thought" means that, during Shikantaza Zazen, we become 'disentangled' from thoughts, they pass like clouds in the sky without our stirring them up, they pass like cars down a country highway and we just don't get in for a ride. We sit with radical equanimity, including equanimity about passing emotions (e.g., we might feel passing sadness or frustration, but we do not jump on, stir it up, get tangled in long chains of thought about the sadness or frustration, and instead feel equanimity and acceptance -about- our momentarily feeling sad or frustrated. That is very different from trying to stop all thoughts or to be completely free of emotions such as sadness or frustration.) To do so, we might place attention lightly on the breath, the posture or, when one can, 'open spacious awareness' with the attention placed lightly on everything and nothing in particular.

"Thinking not thinking" is the experience of Prajna Wisdom that results.

"Not thinking" is -not- being totally without thought as if in a coma. Rather, it is the experience when we are free of all divided thoughts and names by which we cut up the world into pieces, e.g., me who is not you, this and that, good and bad, friend and enemy, birth and death, win and lose, war and peace, toaster and tree etc. etc. In such, there is an Illumination of flowing Wholeness which manifests as the hard borders of self vs. not-self soften, all things are shown empty of independent existence. These is clarity, simplicity, a kind of Peace and Goodness that holds all the broken pieces, good and bad of this chaotic world. One might say that it is the open boundless sky without a cloud, the silence without a passing car.

However, our practice is not to be just in this "not thinking." We cannot live there, nor is it the final lesson. Rather, when the thoughts and emotions come ... the clouds and passing cars, broken pieces, war and peace, life and death, good and bad ... we find the Wholeness and Illumination shines through. In fact, the Wholeness and Illumination -IS PRECISELY- the broken pieces of this world in other guise. The sky -is- the passing clouds, the silence -is- the noise of passing cars. Then the clouds and cars, broken pieces, good and bad, thoughts and emotions of this life are here .... just the same, yet somehow illuminated and not the same as before. We also say, "Mountains are mountains, then mountains are not mountains, then mountains are mountains again."

Dogen, and many Zen folks, discovered that the broken pieces each are the Wholeness, the noise of life is Silence. Do not try or need to be totally free of the chaos and noise of this world but, rather, hear the Peace and Silence that is present even in and as the whole bloody mess.

This is "Thinking not Thinking."

"Opening the hand of thought" is our way of realizing "thinking not thinking."

Gassho, J
stlah

PS - Alex, yes, when you can, please put a human face photo to accompany your posts. It helps keep us more human around here.

[alecs]

thank you Jundo, what you said really helped clear things up!
Also, I found the talk you linked about the relationship between Fukanzazengi and Zuochan-yi very useful.
Sometimes words and expressions can be tricky, especially in zen literature!

Gassho,
Alex

sat/Lah

[Shui_Di]

Just as the title suggests, how are these two concepts related? Is "thinking of not thinking" an elaborate and perhaps more precise way of expressing the idea of "opening the hand of thought" / "Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish" (Zuochan-yi)?

Maybe I'm just mixing things up, so I thought I'd ask here!

Gassho,
Alex
sat/Lah

P.S. I'm working on the propic... I exist, I swear!!

Hi Alec,

I am not a priest, so please take my comment with a pinch of salt.

I agree with Jundo that Dogen drop the verse "as long as you aware of it, it will vanish".

But why?

Because in the later version of Fukanzazengi, Dogen want to point out the heart of Zazen.

I just want to quote about the poem between Shenxiu and Huineng. In that time the 5th Partriac of Zen in China wanted his student to write a poem represent their understanding on Zen, so he might choose his successor as the sixth Patriach.

So his most senior student Shenxiu wrote this poem on the wall:

"The body is the wisdom-tree,

The mind is a bright mirror in a stand;

Take care to wipe it all the time,

And allow no dust to cling."

This poem remind us about the idea of aware to the thoughts, and as we aware of it, it will vanish. So we are cleaning the mind from the dusty thoughts.

Then, Huineng who was just someone who worked in the kitchen, a layman, someone who was illiterate, asked someone to write a poem he made, on the wall too answering Shenxiu's poem:

"Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,

Nor the stand of a mirror bright.

Since all is empty from the beginning,

Where can the dust alight?"

So, fundamentally, thought is empty, so what do we want to aware of? Originally "Awareness" (with big A) is already there, so what else kind of awareness we want to remake? Let's say we attain a condition of Samadhi because of we aware of the thoughts, how long will you maintain this kind of Samadhi? This kind of tranquility is also impermanent.

The real Samadhi is understanding that thoughts or no thoughts both are Bodhi. That's why Dogen Zenji said in Genjo Koan - Shobogenzo
"Those who greatly realize delusions are buddhas. Those who are greatly deluded about realization are ordinary beings."

Droping the judgement between Bodhi and delusion is understanding the bodhi nature within delusion.

This is the meaning of the finger pointing the moon, but actually moon is no different with the finger. This is practice and enlightenment as one.

So in Zazen, we are not sitting to aware, We sit as the Awareness itself. We are not sitting to vanish the thoughts, but to realize nothing is needed to be vanished. Just like the Huineng's poem, "Since all is empty from the beginning, where can the dust alight?"

That's why Dogen Zenji said "thinking of not-thinking. What kind of thinking is that?"

In Kanji, Dogen Zenji said "非思量“
非 means "is not", 思 means Thinking, 量 means "measuring".

So what kind of thinking is that? Dogen Zenji in my opinion in other words he wanted to say, 'Don't even ask that question. You ask about what kind of "thinking", but it is not thinking at all. It is beyond thinking and measuring."

Just like we asked Huineng Zenji, "how we wipe the dust", Huineng Zenji might answer, "No Dust".

Really? Do you believe that? So are we a Buddha already now? Don't you have doubt of it?

This doubt is natural, but it is also thinking. But Zazen is beyond that. It is okay, we just keep sitting with that with open hands.

Just sit and dropping the body and mind, even nothing needs to be dropped.

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

[Jundo]

Hi Shui,

Lovely comment.

But no need to say that. It is only for our newly Ordained priests to note during the first year or so of their training ...

Hi Alec,

I am not a priest, so please take my comment with a pinch of salt.

Also, Dogen might drop in a little something here ...

Just like we asked Huineng Zenji, "how we wipe the dust", Huineng Zenji might answer, "No Dust".

Of course, there is dust too, all the delusions of this world. So Dogen might add the reminder that "no dust, and there never was, and yet we wipe wipe wipe ... acting as best we can with the dignity, grace, goodness, generosity, balance of a Buddha ... for the very act of wipe wipe wipe is a Buddha's wiping Buddha."

Gassho, J
stlah

[Shui_Di]

Hi Shui,

Lovely comment.

But no need to say that. It is only for our newly Ordained priests to note during the first year or so of their training ...



Also, Dogen might drop in a little something here ...



Of course, there is dust too, all the delusions of this world. So Dogen might add the reminder that "no dust, and there never was, and yet we wipe wipe wipe ... acting as best we can with the dignity, grace, goodness, generosity, balance of a Buddha ... for the very act of wipe wipe wipe is a Buddha's wiping Buddha."

Gassho, J
stlah

Thank you Jundo Roshi,

I love it. "Buddha's wiping Buddha".

Gassho, Mujo