Dreaming and awakening

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  • Noel
    Member
    • May 2025
    • 25

    Dreaming and awakening

    Hi all,

    This is the first time I’m starting a topic. I’m not sure if this is the right section, but I just wanted to ask about how you experience “dreaming” and “awakening.”

    I read Jundo Roshi in another section saying that Buddhism helps you see that you are in a dream. I don’t know if it’s the same thing, but I sometimes (often) experience life as something “strange.”

    In literature, there is a term for this. In Spanish, it’s “extrañamiento,” but I believe the English equivalent is “defamiliarization” (though I could be wrong).

    Right now, I’m sitting in my room, looking around, aware that I am alive—and that feels strange. It’s as if my body truly senses that I am on Earth, spinning with it. I feel the movement. Other times, I feel—not just think—about all the people dying and being born at every moment, all around the world. Everything in the room seems full of meaning and presence—each glass, each cushion—like each object holds significance beyond itself. Sometimes, I even avoid buying things because I sense that each item carries so much within it.

    I see this room like a scene from a theater—as if it’s not real. Or maybe it is, but it feels both strange and real, so unfamiliar that it almost seems unreal. I don’t feel like I’m part of the play. It’s as if I’m watching from the outside, sitting in the audience, fully aware of being an observer while the world performs its play. Yet, at the same time, I am in the play—I am a character in it, playing a role. But I’ve always struggled to identify with a single role, with just one story, because I could be all the stories, be everyone.

    Sometimes, I try very hard to step in and play the game—I talk about all the worldly things—but deep down, I know I’m just playing. It’s as if something within me doesn’t believe in the game.

    Thank you for reading.

    Gassho,

    Noel

    Sat-lah
    There is only One Being.
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 42330

    #2
    Hi Noel,

    You are in the right section, you are not dreaming about that!

    Master Dogen taught that life may be like a dream in many ways, but it is a real dream, the dream that is our life, so we should dream it well! Don't turn the good dream into a nightmare.

    So, it is important to know that Buddhists, and cognitive scientists, say that our experience of life has ASPECTS of being like a dream. For example, for most Buddhists, something is "out there" outside ourselves, but the mind adds all kinds of names, categories, added experiences, judgements and the like, thus creating our experience of life. For example, maybe there are some atoms "out there" in a certain configuration, but our eyes and brain add such things as "tree" and "tree that is not the ground or sky" and "green color" and "beautiful" and "the wood would make a nice table so I desire to cut it down" etc. etc.

    Because life is so much a dream, we can learn through Zen practice to know the world in alternative ways, e.g., "tree and ground and sky are one thing" or "the tree is not apart from 'me'" and "the tree is me growing there, I am the tree writing here" etc. So many of our divided views and problems in life that we judge between the ears can be changed just by changing the thoughts between the ears.

    So, the experience of being a "dream" is supposed to be positive: We find it freeing of much mental clutter, and also we find that our "self" is much vaster than we thought. You are the play ... and you are the actors ... and the actors are each other and the stage and lights ... and you are the stage and lights ... and all the seats and popcorn ... and the world outside and inside ... etc.etc. Of course, the actors can act badly, causing troubles for themselves and nearby actors with their greed, violence and such. So, please act nice! Master Dogen would say that it is a "real play," the play is our world, is your life ... so find a nice role and do beautiful acting! It is "real acting" that is the real life of the world.

    Gassho, J
    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-12-2025, 12:35 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 42330

      #3
      PS - I have a tendency to go to extremes with my analogies, so I wrote an essay awhile ago which speaks of Zen practice and life as a theatre and play ...

      Buddha's Theatre of the Sublime

      We are born, as if mysteriously appearing upon a stage. A drama is underway, filled with scenes of comedy and tragedy. There is changing scenery, both beautiful and ugly. Myriad other actors share the stage with us, some close, some as friends or enemies, but most as strangers. In fact, we are each actors and action's audience too, looking out from our eyes. There are ever evolving storylines, many making little sense (if any), filled with laughter and tears, sometimes anger, violence and bloodshed. There is sometimes real pain. How we entered, stage right, is mysterious, but it seems we are expected to perform (little choice if we are to eat). There are acts in which we are young, healthy, but later acts of sickness and old age.

      In this production, we are not given set lines to read, nor is the eventual ending of the whole work (if there is one) anywhere clearly in view. Rather, we find ourselves in stage settings not of our choosing, some of us born as the rich man, the victor, most as someone poor, the victim, the vanquished. Within these settings, we are taught a little at the start, but then it seems we are free to say lines of our own making, act and react as we choose, in interplay with the other actors, in some kind of improvisation. We work from the scenes we are randomly handed from somewhere (often unexpected and far from what we might wish), make up our responses as best we can, which all invents whatever comes next.

      MORE HERE: https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/tea...of-the-sublime
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Koushi
        Senior Priest-in-Training / Engineer
        • Apr 2015
        • 1528

        #4
        Hi Noel,

        Not taking away from what Jundo wonderfully said, since you specifically noted "defamiliarization" (the term is either derealization, where someone feels detached from the world and it feels unreal—or depersonalization, where one feels detached from themself) I'd like to mention that if felt to an extreme degree where it impacts everyday life, it is considered a psychological condition that does/can go away with time and not "checking" for it to see if it's still there or feels the same way.

        I've experienced this many times in my life, sometimes temporarily, sometimes for months at a time, and always after extreme stress or changing of life conditions. If it begins impacting your daily life, I would suggest seeing a professional, if-needed, as it's treatable.

        Not diagnosing of course, just commenting for awareness.

        Gassho,
        Koushi
        ST
        理道弘志 | Ridō Koushi

        Please take this priest-in-training's words with a grain of salt.

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 42330

          #5
          Originally posted by Koushi
          Hi Noel,

          ... If it begins impacting your daily life, I would suggest seeing a professional, if-needed, as it's treatable.

          Not diagnosing of course, just commenting for awareness.
          Yes. Important to say.
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Noel
            Member
            • May 2025
            • 25

            #6
            Thank you, Jundo Roshi. What you wrote about the play is exactly what I meant.

            Thank you, Koushi.

            I think concepts are fine, but what truly matters is what we experience. Otherwise, they’re just pleasant ideas in a book—a tale we tell ourselves. Just like life.

            By the way, Jundo Roshi, have you read Wirginia Woolf?

            Gassho,

            Noel

            Sat-lah
            Last edited by Noel; 06-16-2025, 07:21 PM.
            There is only One Being.

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 42330

              #7
              I have not read Virginia Wolf. Why?

              Gassho, J
              stlah
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              • Noel
                Member
                • May 2025
                • 25

                #8
                Because, I feel she has some perspectives that are similar to Dogen. In her writing, all is interconnected. One thing merges with the other.

                Sorry I edited my last post while you were answering and added some things.

                I often don't talk about these things because most people don't like to hear them or feel afraid. But for some reason, I felt that here it was safe.

                I am just a normal person with weird perspectives, dont be worried.

                Gassho,

                Noel

                Sat-lah
                Last edited by Noel; 06-12-2025, 07:52 AM.
                There is only One Being.

                Comment

                • Noel
                  Member
                  • May 2025
                  • 25

                  #9
                  Virginia seeks the rythm just like Dogen.

                  Woolf writes:
                  Style is a very simple matter: it is all rhythm. Once you get that, you can’t use the wrong words. But on the other hand here am I sitting after half the morning, crammed with ideas, and visions, and so on, and can’t dislodge them, for lack of the right rhythm. Now this is very profound, what rhythm is, and goes far deeper than words. A sight, an emotion, creates this wave in the mind, long before it makes words to fit it; and in writing (such is my present belief) one has to recapture this, and set this working (which has nothing apparently to do with words) and then, as it breaks and tumbles in the mind, it makes words to fit it. But no doubt I shall think differently next year.

                  Gassho,

                  Sat-lah

                  Noel
                  There is only One Being.

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 42330

                    #10
                    just a normal person with weird perspectives
                    Ah, then you are among friends!

                    Gassho, J
                    stlah
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • FNJ
                      Member
                      • May 2025
                      • 100

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Noel
                      Hi all,

                      This is the first time I’m starting a topic. I’m not sure if this is the right section, but I just wanted to ask about how you experience “dreaming” and “awakening.”

                      I read Jundo Roshi in another section saying that Buddhism helps you see that you are in a dream. I don’t know if it’s the same thing, but I sometimes (often) experience life as something “strange.”

                      In literature, there is a term for this. In Spanish, it’s “extrañamiento,” but I believe the English equivalent is “defamiliarization” (though I could be wrong).

                      Right now, I’m sitting in my room, looking around, aware that I am alive—and that feels strange. It’s as if my body truly senses that I am on Earth, spinning with it. I feel the movement. Other times, I feel—not just think—about all the people dying and being born at every moment, all around the world. Everything in the room seems full of meaning and presence—each glass, each cushion—like each object holds significance beyond itself. Sometimes, I even avoid buying things because I sense that each item carries so much within it.

                      I see this room like a scene from a theater—as if it’s not real. Or maybe it is, but it feels both strange and real, so unfamiliar that it almost seems unreal. I don’t feel like I’m part of the play. It’s as if I’m watching from the outside, sitting in the audience, fully aware of being an observer while the world performs its play. Yet, at the same time, I am in the play—I am a character in it, playing a role. But I’ve always struggled to identify with a single role, with just one story, because I could be all the stories, be everyone.

                      Sometimes, I try very hard to step in and play the game—I talk about all the worldly things—but deep down, I know I’m just playing. It’s as if something within me doesn’t believe in the game.
                      So I have come to the conclusion that dissociation of various types is a totally natural thing. It can de distressing but it can also be helpfully numbing when things are too much. It can also help us to change our perspective when we are stuck.

                      So one of the most powerful experiences probably related to what Noel is talking about was when I took a heroic dose of magic mushrooms. This was a good trip and I was with friends at college and we all took mushrooms and went to see a funk show. I didn't remember too much the day after but slowly my memories came back. However they were very interesting. My friends and I compared notes on the trip for a while after and we had all experienced the phenomena of seeing the world through other peoples eyes. I literally had memories of friends who had gone off and done other things (like got a slice of pizza) and I hadn't been with them but I remembered it nonetheless. I also had several memories of myself in the third person from the perspective of my friends. This is going back like more than 20 years but I remember it so clearly. So while it may be different from "defamiliarization" (like when you say something so many times it become gibberish) I think it's related to the fact that consciousness knows no boundaries. The sense of self and separation actually seems like quite a thin veil. I don't condone drugs in general, but once in a while it can be what we need to get "unstuck".

                      Sat LAH
                      Gassho
                      Niall
                      Last edited by FNJ; 06-12-2025, 11:34 AM.

                      Comment

                      • FNJ
                        Member
                        • May 2025
                        • 100

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Koushi
                        Hi Noel,

                        Not taking away from what Jundo wonderfully said, since you specifically noted "defamiliarization" (the term is either derealization, where someone feels detached from the world and it feels unreal—or depersonalization, where one feels detached from themself) I'd like to mention that if felt to an extreme degree where it impacts everyday life, it is considered a psychological condition that does/can go away with time and not "checking" for it to see if it's still there or feels the same way.

                        I've experienced this many times in my life, sometimes temporarily, sometimes for months at a time, and always after extreme stress or changing of life conditions. If it begins impacting your daily life, I would suggest seeing a professional, if-needed, as it's treatable.

                        Not diagnosing of course, just commenting for awareness.

                        Gassho,
                        Koushi
                        ST
                        Excellent caution BTW! This phenomenon is part of a spectrum of experiences which can be interesting and fun on one end and a psychotic hell on the other. Good to have mental health help if it gets distressing or makes your life unmanageable!

                        Sat LAH
                        Gassho
                        Niall

                        Comment

                        • Noel
                          Member
                          • May 2025
                          • 25

                          #13
                          Originally posted by FNJ

                          So I have come to the conclusion that dissociation of various types is a totally natural thing. It can de distressing but it can also be helpfully numbing when things are too much. It can also help us to change our perspective when we are stuck.

                          So one of the most powerful experiences probably related to what Noel is talking about was when I took a heroic dose of magic mushrooms. This was a good trip and I was with friends at college and we all took mushrooms and went to see a funk show. I didn't remember too much the day after but slowly my memories came back. However they were very interesting. My friends and I compared notes on the trip for a while after and we had all experienced the phenomena of seeing the world through other peoples eyes. I literally had memories of friends who had gone off and done other things (like got a slice of pizza) and I hadn't been with them but I remembered it nonetheless. I also had several memories of myself in the third person from the perspective of my friends. This is going back like more than 20 years but I remember it so clearly. So while it may be different from "defamiliarization" (like when you say something so many times it become gibberish) I think it's related to the fact that consciousness knows no boundaries. The sense of self and separation actually seems like quite a thin veil. I don't condone drugs in general, but once in a while it can be what we need to get "unstuck".

                          Sat LAH
                          Gassho
                          Niall

                          Thank you, Niall, for your reply!

                          Also, I don´t want to do anything to dream another dream in my mind. It can be difficult to know when we are dreaming and when we are not. But I try not to fall into self-delusion and I am not actively trying to have "experiences". However, I fully agree with you that consciousness knows no boundaries, and even science and what we consider "healthy" or "unhealthy" based on what's considered "normal" have many limitations.

                          What I do is, I acknowledge I felt strange things, and I leave it there and continue practicing zazen. So, the focus is on zazen. Nothing more. Because if not, you get lost in the experiences. They are not the focus. The focus is beyond that. But I am new, and I don't know so much. Just remember that. I just speak what I feel and how I live it.


                          Thank you again!

                          Gassho,

                          Noel

                          Sat-lah
                          Last edited by Noel; 06-16-2025, 05:11 PM.
                          There is only One Being.

                          Comment

                          • Noel
                            Member
                            • May 2025
                            • 25

                            #14
                            Another thing I sometimes feel is that there is no true emptiness. What we perceive as empty space is actually full and complete—so there is no separation between “things.” At the same time, the “things” themselves are empty. Everything is just a continuous whole.

                            I will not bother you more guys, sorry for taking so much space.


                            Thank you again!

                            Gassho,

                            Noel

                            Sat-lah
                            Last edited by Noel; 06-12-2025, 02:33 PM.
                            There is only One Being.

                            Comment

                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 42330

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Noel
                              Another thing I sometimes feel is that there is no true emptiness. What we perceive as empty space is actually full and complete—so there is no separation between “things.” At the same time, the “things” themselves are empty. Everything is just a continuous whole.
                              Sounds pretty Dharma to me. If you feel it a positive experience, and not an experience where you are losing yourself in a bad way, then it is probably a good insight.

                              Gassho, J
                              stlah
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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