Looking into the Lotus Sutra

**Jundo** · 04-15-2025, 02:20 AM

Hi Layzie,

Oh, the Lotus Sutra is an amazing piece of literature, filled with Truths, but in a fantastic style ... our Star Wars or Lord of the Rings.

If you will do so, I recommend this:

First, do you have much experience with Dogen? If not, I might recommend my book, an introduction to reading Dogen, called "Zen Master's Dance."

Then, I would read the short book, "Visions of Awakening Space and Time" by Taigen Dan Leighton. It shows how Dogen wilded the already wild Lotus Sutra. Then, last but not least, I would read the The Lotus Sutra with Gene Reeves translator (you can buy, but it is also available online I think.) It is very readable.

Oh, and may I ask a favor? Could you have a photo that shows a human face, not just the back of the head? It helps keep things more warm and human around here. If there are confidentiality concerns, discuss with me, and I can suggest some steps.

Have a nice voyage into the Lotus!

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

**Jundo** · 04-15-2025, 02:24 AM

PS - I once wrote this to someone who read the Lotus Sutra ...

~~~

Allegories and parables and symbols all wrapped up in a score of dreamlike settings and wild psychedelic imagery, created by a collection of religiously inspired authors (probably a bunch of folks who added and rewrote and wrote again over many centuries). Modern folks who like "Lord of the Rings" and "Flaming Lips" or "Pink Floyd" concerts or the head scratching ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey or had a dream or smoked a little weed or like Salvador Dali should not have much trouble with it, because it was the "special effects" of its day with a bit of Alice through the Looking Glass and William Burroughs tossed in.

Yippee!

One weird thing about the book is that it is about its own preaching, and how wonderful it is, as if I made a film that was mostly about people watching the completed version of the film itself which consists of people in the film saying how wonderful the film about making the film about watching the film is!

Remember the scene from the Being John Malkovich movie in which everyone is John Malkovich ... the book is kinda like that about Being Buddha ...
.

But amid all that there are some very very important allegories and teachings that have important messages, such as:

- The Buddha died in India but, in another sense, since the Buddha and the whole universe is beyond time, the Buddha is timeless. Kannon too.

- The parable of the poor man who doesn't realize he has a jewel ("Buddha Nature") sewn in his coat the whole time.

- The lessons on "skillful means" (that the Buddha taught different lessons to different people with different needs, and even various kinds of "holy half truths"

) to get good people out of the burning house of ignorance, but it is really all one vehicle. The fathers in the stories who entice their children out of a burning house with promises of toys, or to take their medicine by adding sugar when sick, represent this.

- The prediction that (a lot of Sutras do this) if you just copy or read or recite or have trust in the Sutra its power will be yours, like some magic protective jewel.

Dogen loved the images in the Lotus Sutra and the messages woven all through about how amazing is the world and Buddha and enlightenment that, in Shobogenzo, he would regularly take the already wild and twisty images of the Lotus Sutra and even more wild up and twist em around like what Picasso might do if he was redoing an Andy Warhol painting while watching Twin Peaks. Taigen Leighton has an excellent short book and some online essays about this that I recommend highly to anyone trying to understand Dogen ...

https://www.amazon.com/Visions-Awakening-Space-Time-D%C5%8Dgen-ebook/dp/B005BP2FUW/ref=sr_1_10?qid=1553975276&refinements=p_27%3ATaig en+Dan+Leighton&s=digital-text&sr=1-10&text=Taigen+Dan+Leighton

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Dogen-s-Appropriation-of-Lotus-Sutra-Ground-and-Space.pdf

Like many of the Mahayana Sutras, it is also quite ahead of its time in this day and age when we do realize that the universe is vast, with galaxies as plentiful as the number of sands of the Ganges and perhaps a "multi-verse" of universes upon universes! Here is one of its descriptions of the vastness of time and space which is really not so hard to understand. It is just the traditional story of the Buddha on steroids, trying to make the point that Buddha is actually not bound by space and time and is in every atom or instant of time, all wrapped up with characters right out of the bar scene in Star Wars ...

Then the Bhagavat [Buddha] ...addressed them, saying: “Listen carefully to the Tathāgata’s [Buddha's] secret and transcendent powers. The devas [gods], humans, and asuras [fighting spirits] in all the worlds all think that the present Buddha, Śākyamuni, left the palace of the Śākyas, sat on the terrace of enlightenment not far from the city of Gayā, and attained highest, complete enlightenment. However, O sons of a virtuous family, immeasurable, limitless, hundreds of thousands of myriads of koṭis of nayutas of kalpas [incredible measures of eras of time] have passed since I actually attained buddhahood. “Suppose there were a man who ground five hundreds of thousands myriads of koṭis of nayutas of incalculable great manifold cosmos into particles. While passing through five hundred thousands of myriads of koṭis of nayutas of incalculable lands to the east, he dropped just a single particle; and in this way he continued to drop the particles as he went toward the east, until they were all gone. “O sons of a virtuous family! What do you think about this? Can all of these worlds be calculated or not? Can one imagine all of these worlds, calculate, and know their number or not?”

Bodhisattva Maitreya and the others together addressed the Buddha, saying: “O Bhagavat! These worlds are immeasurable, limitless, incalculable, and beyond our powers of conception. Even all the śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas [basically, armchair Buddhists and followers of the early Buddhist traditions], with their knowledge free from corruption, are not able to comprehend them, or know their number. Although we abide in the stage of nonretrogression we cannot understand it. O Bhagavat! Such worlds as these are incalculable and limitless.”

Then the Buddha addressed the assembly of the great bodhisattvas, saying: “O sons of a virtuous family! I will now explain it clearly to you. Suppose all these worlds, whether or not a particle was left in them, were reduced to particles, and each particle represented a kalpa [an era of billions and billions of years]. The period of time since I became a buddha would exceed this by hundreds of thousands of myriads of koṭis of nayutas of incalculable kalpas. Since then I have constantly been residing in the sahā world [this ordinary world], teaching the Dharma and inspiring sentient beings. I have also been leading and benefiting sentient beings in incalculable hundreds of thousands of myriads of koṭis of nayutas of other worlds. “O sons of a virtuous family! During this interim I explained about the Buddha Dīpaṃkara and others [earlier Buddhas before me]. Furthermore, I also said that they had entered parinirvāṇa [final nirvana at my death]. I have explained such things through skillful means [i.e., I did not really mean it literally that I died]. “O sons of a virtuous family! If any sentient being comes to me, I perceive the dullness or sharpness of his faith and other faculties with my buddhaeye. According to the way I should bring them to the path, I, myself, proclaim different names and lifespans in various places. In each case I have also clearly stated that I would enter parinirvāṇa. Through various skillful means I have explained subtle teachings and have made the sentient beings rejoice ...

Golly!

Gassho, J

STLah

Flaming Lips (the Lotus Sutra has more polite lyrics) ...

.

**Shui_Di** · 04-15-2025, 04:39 AM

Hi Jundo Roshi and Layzie

Wow... I will love this topic. Lotus Sutra is the Sutra which difficult for me to understand. Just like the Sutra talk about many things, so I just confused what is the main topic of this Sutra.

And also, I am so interested in how the Tendai school by Saicho, give up the Dharmagupta Vinaya which is a Hinayana precepts, and Saicho used the precepts based the Mahayana Precepts on the two Sutras, one is Bharma-Net Sutra, and the other is Lotus Sutra. I am curious on which part of the Lotus Sutra talk about it. Since Dogen Zenji was also Tendai monk before he went to China, it looks like our 16 Bodhisattva precept also have a historical background with the Tendai school.

I have the translation of J.C. Clearly. I don't know if this one is a good translation.

I need your opinion about it?

Gassho, Mujo
StLah

**Hoseki** · 04-15-2025, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Shui_Di

Hi Jundo Roshi and Layzie

Wow... I will love this topic. Lotus Sutra is the Sutra which difficult for me to understand. Just like the Sutra talk about many things, so I just confused what is the main topic of this Sutra.

And also, I am so interested in how the Tendai school by Saicho, give up the Dharmagupta Vinaya which is a Hinayana precepts, and Saicho used the precepts based the Mahayana Precepts on the two Sutras, one is Bharma-Net Sutra, and the other is Lotus Sutra. I am curious on which part of the Lotus Sutra talk about it. Since Dogen Zenji was also Tendai monk before he went to China, it looks like our 16 Bodhisattva precept also have a historical background with the Tendai school.

I have the translation of J.C. Clearly. I don't know if this one is a good translation.

I need your opinion about it?

Gassho, Mujo
StLah

Hi Mujo,

I'm not sure if this would be helpful but Saicho's brought Zhiyi's Mohezhiguan as part of the new tradition he was creating. Paul Swanson has a translation that came out a few years ago. I haven't read it but it was recommended to me by an author of a few books on Tiantai Buddhism.

Off the top of my head I think one of the most important aspects would be, As Jundo mentioned, Upaya or skillful means. This allows for differences in the traditions to exist along aside each other despite their apparent contradictions and focus. The teachings and practices are methods to realization (or practice realization) are kind of context dependent. Using medicine as a model we can think of suffering as a disease and the teaching as the cure. Not everyone has the same disease or the same capabilities so the Buddha or Bodhisattvas give different medicine for the different diseases. Or the same medicine but different amounts sort of like how children's Tylenol has the same ingredients as adult Tylenol but in a smaller dose.

You might also find the article on Tiantai Buddhism on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy to be interesting. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-tiantai/

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/ah

**Jundo** · 04-16-2025, 12:53 AM

And also, I am so interested in how the Tendai school by Saicho, give up the Dharmagupta Vinaya which is a Hinayana precepts, and Saicho used the precepts based the Mahayana Precepts on the two Sutras, one is Bharma-Net Sutra, and the other is Lotus Sutra. I am curious on which part of the Lotus Sutra talk about it. Since Dogen Zenji was also Tendai monk before he went to China, it looks like our 16 Bodhisattva precept also have a historical background with the Tendai school.

I do not see that there is specific mention of Precepts in the Lotus Sutra, although there is a general emphasis on good, ethical Bodhisattva behavior. Dogen was probably most influenced by the first 10 "major" Precepts of the Brahma-Net Sutra, not the Lotus, in formulating his Precepts (which Dogen said he received from his Teacher in China, Rujing Zenji.) As Hoseski says, there is also the teaching of "Expedient Means (Upaya)" in the Lotus Sutra, whereby one must even sometimes break a Precept to keep a Precept (like the Lotus Sutra parable of the father who tells an untruth to his children to save them from a burning building.) Dogen sometimes spoke of Buddhist ethics in his writings in such a flexible way, with the purpose and intent counting more than the strict following of the law, with stories of less than perfect monk behavior done for higher reasons.

There is some general ethics in the Lotus Sutra that may have influenced Dogen. The following quotes Prof. Groner's book (Saichō: The Establishment of the Japanese Tendai School, p206-208)

Saicho's thought on the precepts was mainly derived from two sutras. The first was the Fan wang ching [Brahma-Net]. In the Shijoshiki, Saicho clearly indicated that the ten major and forty-eight minor precepts of the Fan wang ching were to replace the two-hundred fifty precepts of the Ssu fen lii as the basis of Tendai monastic discipline.1 In the Kenkairon, the Fan wang ching was quoted thirty-one times and mentioned three additional times. Many of the quotations appeared at key points in Saicho's argument. For example, Saicho cited the sutra to prove that Tendai monks must not follow Hinayana teachings, that anyone might receive the Fan wang precepts, and that those precepts were followed by all Buddhas. Thus, the Fan wang ching played a vital role in shaping Saicho's thought. The second sutra was the Lotus Sutra. Saicho quoted it ten times and mentioned it three other times in the Kenkairon, placing it second only to the Fan wang ching in frequency of citation. The Lotus Sutra, however, was not quoted at crucial points in his argument as was the Fan wang ching. Rather, its prominence in the Kenkairon was due to the central role it played in Tendai thought, not because it was directly applicable to the problems which Saicho was discussing.

The Lotus Sūtra includes a number of passages which could be read as advocating correct behavior and thus as a form of precepts. In order to understand Saichō’s use of the Lotus Sūtra and the ways in which later scholars interpreted his references to it, these passages must be considered. Medieval Tendai scholars maintained the position that these passages described four types of precepts. First were the eternal unconditioned precepts which provided the foundation for all other sets of precepts, called the Lotus One-vehicle precepts (Hokke ichijōkai) or the Unmanifested Diamond precepts (musa kongōhōkai). These precepts were formless, without definite content, and based mainly on the second chapter of the Lotus Sūtra. No direct reference to these precepts was found in Saichō’s works.

In contrast to these formless precepts, the other three types did have definite contents. The second type concerned the behavior of those who preached the Lotus Sūtra. It was referred to in Saichō’s Final Admonitions (Yuikai).

The third type consisted of four requirements for people who would devote themselves to upholding the Lotus Sūtra (jikyō) after the Buddha’s death. They were to:

Be under the guardianship of the Buddhas.
Plant the roots of a multitude of virtues.
Enter the various correct concentrations.
Aspire to save all living beings.

This list did not play an important role in Saichō’s thought and was referred to only in works by later scholars.

The fourth and most important type of precepts was found in the chapter on serene and pleasing activities (Anrakugyōbon) [Peaceful Practices] in the Lotus Sūtra. This chapter described the ways in which bodhisattvas were to practice during the period of the decline of the Buddha’s teaching. These practices consisted of general instructions for preaching and for adhering to the teachings of the Lotus Sūtra rather than actual rules. They were grouped into four categories: action, word, thought and vow. Saichō was concerned mainly with the actions which the sūtra recommended. These were divided into two sets. The first set was a description of the religious practices which a devout person should follow, such as quietly meditating on things as they are. The second set was a list of the many types of people whom a Mahāyāna Buddhist was to avoid. Commentators traditionally divided this set into ten types of people, the fifth of which consisted of those who sought Hinayāna goals.

These precepts, usually called the anrakugyō (serene and pleasing activities), have long played as important role in T’ien-t’ai thought. ...

I have the translation of J.C. Clearly. I don't know if this one is a good translation.

Pardon the personal question, Shui Di, but it is easier for you to read it in English than a modern or classical Chinese version? As to the Cleary translation, I am not expert, but I see other English translations mentioned ahead of it ... Burton Watson and the scholarly Leon Hurwitz particularly. I like Gene Reeves simply because he used modern language and style to make it more readable.

Gassho, J
stlah

**Shui_Di** · 04-16-2025, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Jundo

I do not see that there is specific mention of Precepts in the Lotus Sutra, although there is a general emphasis on good, ethical Bodhisattva behavior. Dogen was probably most influenced by the first 10 "major" Precepts of the Brahma-Net Sutra, not the Lotus, in formulating his Precepts (which Dogen said he received from his Teacher in China, Rujing Zenji.) As Hoseski says, there is also the teaching of "Expedient Means (Upaya)" in the Lotus Sutra, whereby one must even sometimes break a Precept to keep a Precept (like the Lotus Sutra parable of the father who tells an untruth to his children to save them from a burning building.) Dogen sometimes spoke of Buddhist ethics in his writings in such a flexible way, with the purpose and intent counting more than the strict following of the law, with stories of less than perfect monk behavior done for higher reasons.

There is some general ethics in the Lotus Sutra that may have influenced Dogen. The following quotes Prof. Groner's book (Saichō: The Establishment of the Japanese Tendai School, p206-208)

Pardon the personal question, Shui Di, but it is easier for you to read it in English than a modern or classical Chinese version? As to the Cleary translation, I am not expert, but I see other English translations mentioned ahead of it ... Burton Watson and the scholarly Leon Hurwitz particularly. I like Gene Reeves simply because he used modern language and style to make it more readable.

Gassho, J
stlah

Thank you Jundo Roshi for the explanation. I agree that keeping a precept should be in moderation and flexible for a higher goodness as we are the Mahayana practitioners. And yes I think 16 precepts are the most important point of Bodhisattva's conduct.

About the Lotus Sutra, actually I love to read the Sutra from both language, the classical Chinese and English. Because textual Chinese classic is not the same with daily Chinese we use today. Classic Chinese language I think is like Latin in Medieval Europe. Which I found that Fukan Zazengi also written by Dogen Zenji in this classical Chinese. That's why I still need the English translation to help me read and understand the Sutra in classical Chinese.

Thank you Jundo roshi

Gassho, Mujo

StLAH

**Shui_Di** · 04-16-2025, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Hoseki

Hi Mujo,

I'm not sure if this would be helpful but Saicho's brought Zhiyi's Mohezhiguan as part of the new tradition he was creating. Paul Swanson has a translation that came out a few years ago. I haven't read it but it was recommended to me by an author of a few books on Tiantai Buddhism.

Off the top of my head I think one of the most important aspects would be, As Jundo mentioned, Upaya or skillful means. This allows for differences in the traditions to exist along aside each other despite their apparent contradictions and focus. The teachings and practices are methods to realization (or practice realization) are kind of context dependent. Using medicine as a model we can think of suffering as a disease and the teaching as the cure. Not everyone has the same disease or the same capabilities so the Buddha or Bodhisattvas give different medicine for the different diseases. Or the same medicine but different amounts sort of like how children's Tylenol has the same ingredients as adult Tylenol but in a smaller dose.

You might also find the article on Tiantai Buddhism on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy to be interesting. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-tiantai/

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/ah

Hi Hoseki,

Thank you for sharing your information about Tiantai School. It is very interesting philosophy of the Tiantai School.

Yes you are right. Different disease need different medication method.

Thank you Hoseki

Gassho, Mujo
StLah

**Marita** · 04-26-2025, 07:29 PM

Hello, everyone. Thank you. I'm planning on going back and reading all the posts. According to Nichiren, whose school I once was more a part of, the Lotus Sutra expresses the power of causality in a single moment and the simultaneous nature of the All.
sat lah
Bows
Marita

**Marita** · 04-26-2025, 07:37 PM

PS I read the Lotus Sutra

**Marita** · 04-26-2025, 09:09 PM

Please excuse me if I've been hutting in.

**Jundo** · 04-27-2025, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Marita

... the Lotus Sutra expresses the power of causality in a single moment and the simultaneous nature of the All.

That is lovely. Zazen is also the embodiment of a single moment and the simultaneous nature of the All.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

**Marita** · 04-29-2025, 02:38 AM

Hello Jundo.
Yes, it's the same in terms of the experience but Nichiren spoke against Zen, claiming that Zen is against words, yet uses words. I guess it's one thing to have swords/words but another thing to know how to use them or not.

Gassho
Sat Lah

**Jundo** · 04-29-2025, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by Marita

Hello Jundo.
Yes, it's the same in terms of the experience but Nichiren spoke against Zen, claiming that Zen is against words, yet uses words. I guess it's one thing to have swords/words but another thing to know how to use them or not.

Gassho
Sat Lah

Nichiren spoke against a lot of things ... and much of Buddhism ... except Nichiren!

He was something of the Buddhist Martin Luther, fire and brimstone, his way or the highway to hell. He proclaimed himself Buddha in the world too ...

Shika (or Shiko) Kakugen (or Shika no Kakugen) (Four Criticisms) refers to the criticisms expressed by Nichiren, the founder of Nichiren Buddhism, against other Buddhist sects that existed in his time. His four criticisms (directed at Shingon Buddhism as a threat to the nation, Zen Buddhism as the work of the devil, Nenbutsu Buddhism as infernal doctrine and Ritsu Buddhism as an act of treason) are known, respectively, as "Shingon Bokoku," "Zen Tenma," "Nenbutsu Muken" and "Ritsu Kokuzoku." These criticisms are found in his writings such as Kangyo Hachiman Sho (Buddhist Teachings) and Ongi Kuden Jo (Collection of Sermons).

https://www.japanesewiki.com/Buddhis...r%20Criticisms %29.html

Here is a rather hipster and too cynical version of Nichiren's life and attitude toward other sects of Buddhism. (I don't like some of the language and the tone, but it is the only video I have been able to find on the life of Nichiren not made by Nichiren Buddhist groups, so a bit less praising of Nichiren than all those.)
.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

**Marita** · 04-29-2025, 09:54 AM

Thank you, Jundo. Yes, Nichiren's arrogance and the SGI's militant evangelism drove me away. Long story. But the Diamoku was introduced to me when I was a mere teenager, baby sitting, 1979 ish. I later continued with the chant telling myself that Nichiren did not create it. During my fundy Christian days, I didn't use it. But ever since around the late 90s I have been chanting it off n on.
I started some Zen practice in around the teens of the 2000s. I have found both practices helpful, but Zen has the better philosophy and dharma teachings.
Gassho
Sat, lah
Marita