Keizan and kannō dōkō

[Shoshin]

After the spring retreat I've remain quite interested in learning more about Keizan.
In my imagination I've pictured Dogen as a wise benevolent, quiet person . Now I picture Keizan as an equally benevolent but more spirited. I find him intriguing.
And I'm intrigued about the reasons why western soto zen departs so much from Keizan's more esoteric approach.
Keizan seems to regard esoteric experiences as a sign of "spiritual maturiy". While in western soto zen the tendency is to try to avoid the pursue of those experiences.
I wonder if the reason is a (very understandable) fear of zen being mixed up with new age practices and beliefs.
I understand that not chasing those experiences is important. I understand how this chasing can be detrimental to our practice. And I'm sure that Keizan didn't advocate for chasing for them.
At the same time those experiences are very real for some people. I have had them and I think it's likely that many of you have experienced them too.
I wonder if there is a way, in western soto zen, in which we can acknowledge, or even investigate the role of those experiences in our "spiritual path" without getting attached to them or without fearing getting attached to them.
Again, I understand the danger, because our context is very different from Keizan's. And I'm sure we all have seen how legitimate "spiritual" practices get tainted and diluted by "pseudo spiritual" practices some of which are not only useless but also dangerous.

So, what do you all think about this?

Btw, I keep on using the term "spiritual" for a lack of a better term. If someone can rephrase it in a way more consistent with our tradition I'll like to learn how to better express it. Thanks!

Gassho
Satlah

[Jundo]

Keizan seems to regard esoteric experiences as a sign of "spiritual maturiy". While in western soto zen the tendency is to try to avoid the pursue of those experiences.
I wonder if the reason is a (very understandable) fear of zen being mixed up with new age practices and beliefs.

Hi Shoshin,

I can say the reason in this Sangha. Dogen's approach resonates with me, and it did with my teacher, Nishijima. Nishijima was not a fan of Keizan, and neither really am I, although I recognize that Keizan's teachings were more colorful and did much to popularize Soto Zen among people who could not understand Zazen's power, and need more magic and incantations.

I also appreciate and really honor the power to transmit insight that can be in many esoteric teachings. However, I also think that esoteric teachings can easily move from insight to superstition, hocus-pocus, make believe nonsense, pseudo-medicine and ignorance. It is not just a matter of recent "New Age" beliefs, because it has been the case with esoteric Buddhism for 1000 years. I think that esoteric Buddhism also consists largely of Hindu beliefs which were not part of Buddhism, and Tibetan "Bon" native beliefs, that "snuck" into Buddhism about 1500 years ago.

If you had some experiences and find meaning there, then it is wonderful for you. Onki's recent therapy adventure with Ketamine are very "esoteric" and loaded with meaning (LINK). I also went to a fantastic film yesterday, an animation based on quite esoteric Buddhist teachings, and it was an amazing work of art (LINK). We also have a great amount of symbolism in Soto Zen, and our own old stories. Master Dogen's teachings are filled with wall-to-wall legends and symbols of our own.

So, I don't encourage esoteric symbolism in this place for about the same reason that we don't discuss a Freudian or Jungian interpretation of dreams and symbols: I don't believe in the value of such analysis, and I think it confuses and obscures more than it makes clear. If we take kannō dōkō (mystical communication between people and Buddhas) too literally, I have a problem with it. If we take some symbolism from it, or use it as just a visualization exercise or artistic expression, I think it can be powerful.

That is just my feeling. Sorry, but symbols and beliefs like this just confuse more than clarify the power of this Way.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Shoshin]

Thanks, Jundo.

I think I understand. I indeed see the dangers of insights becoming "hocus-pocus". And I see that they can too easily create attachments. I've met many, many people in the new age environment and I've played myself with new age paths in the past.

If I understand you correctly, you think that some esoteric experiences can be meaningful. But also in your experience they potentially can create more confusion than clarity.

What do you suggest we do of our own "esoteric" experiences? I've had had a few (4 I think) of different nature. I didn't seek for them (they all occurred spontaneously in the middle of an activity including one that catched me doing zazen) and I don't think I'm attached to experience them again. And I don't try to revisit them to find much meaning beyond the meaning that the experience itself had in the moment it occurred. Like when you visit a nice place, you fully experience it but you don't need to come back.
Would you say that this is the approach you recommend?

I'm happy to talk about those experiences if someone wanted me to do it, just that probably they are not super interesting except for me...

I'm curious about something: did Keizan, in your opinion, emphasize all this esoteric practices for zen to be more palatable (skillful means?) or because he had powerful experiences himself?

Gassho
Satlah

[Hosui]

At the same time those experiences are very real for some people. I have had them and I think it's likely that many of you have experienced them too.
I wonder if there is a way, in western soto zen, in which we can acknowledge, or even investigate the role of those experiences in our "spiritual path" without getting attached to them or without fearing getting attached to them.

I share both your intrigue and your caution, Shoshin. I've also had experiences out-of-the-norm and continue to have them (mine are physical spasms when I sit, associated with a rush of energy - which I've sat with for 30 years). I'm a little suspicious of these too - not to mention suspicious of revealing these to medical professionals, for fear of an incorrect diagnosis - for the same reasons of recognising the hindrance of becoming attached to them.

Interestingly, the fact that you put scare quote around the word spiritual, where Jundo puts them around the word esoteric, indicates to me the peripherality (hocus-pocus) of this whole investigation to mainstream Soto practice - even when the word esoteric can just mean specialist, like a lot of us here have specialist knowledge. It would seem we're left with taking responsibility for our own experiences, whilst still taking refuge in the Three Treasures. For instance, I found the Lu Yang and the Buddhism inspired 'Doku' art work (LINK) Jundo mentions here equally esoteric, where the above referent 'knowledge' is swapped out for 'experience'. Much like Onki's experience, which I recognise but can't say I've had, I've also had next to zero experience of dystopian SF anime, which I nonetheless recognise but can't say I've had.

Question for Jundo, I know Dogen helpfully instructs us to reverence the particularities of the everyday, e.g., using the appropriate ritual etiquette for toothbrushing, cleaning our face, using the toilet, bowing, etc., so that we appreciate how there's only practice-enlightenment in the here and now. Outside of the Fukanzezengi and our zazen practice, does Dogen also suggest similarly helpful etiquette for managing out-of-the-norm esoteric experiences?

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[Jundo]

What do you suggest we do of our own "esoteric" experiences? I've had had a few (4 I think) of different nature. I didn't seek for them (they all occurred spontaneously in the middle of an activity including one that catched me doing zazen) and I don't think I'm attached to experience them again. And I don't try to revisit them to find much meaning beyond the meaning that the experience itself had in the moment it occurred. Like when you visit a nice place, you fully experience it but you don't need to come back.

Here is what I suggest.

I approach these experiences and esoteric teachings as largely symbolic, but they can express profound Truths. So, for example, last night I had a dream about my late grandfather (really, I did. It was a nice dream). I do not actually think that he was "there," coming back to wave at me, yet he was there in my heart. It was meaningful and as real as real can be, in that way. Onki had his vision during his therapy (link above) where I was standing among people looking at him in his grave. I do not believe that I was actually there, yet I was (in Onki's heart or subconscious), and the whole episode conveyed a profound truth for Onki on life, death and impermanence ... a truth as true as true can be. Likewise, art, poems, paintings, novels, myths and legends can be true, with powerful lessons and meaning, even if not literally "true."

So, if you have had experiences, like Onki had his experiences, and the experience seems positive, helpful, healthy, beneficial, filled with good meaning ... then it is a good experience, and has that truth that is priceless. I completely believe in and support such experiences, visions and beliefs. As I said to Onki, it does not matter if the experience is the wisdom in Onki coming out to understand life using certain visions he is having, or life speaking to Onki through those visions, or both ... he is still having good visions with positive lessons in any case.

Now, at the other extreme, my problem with many esoteric beliefs is that they go further into what I call "woo woo," non-sense, distracting quack medicine and weird claims (e.g., the Bodhisattva Kannon was seen in a Guru's vision to enter into this crystal amulet which, if you wear it, has vibrations which will ease your heart, cure your cancer and bring you good fortune.) There might be some psychological benefit to the person, some placebo like positive effect, and most of religion is based on such "woo woo."

However, I do not teach woo woo. I think the woo woo tends to hurt, distract, and hide more than it clarifies and helps. It makes people run mostly after charms and incantations for worldly benefits, and they miss the true power of the Buddhist teachings for all the "shiny gimmicks" and side-show circus. We do not need woo woo. This life and world are miraculous enough, real science is real magic ... no need for silly magic and superstition. (I am writing a book now recounting the whole amazing story about how the universe ran from the Big Bang to Shoshin's birth, and it does not get any more fantastic and incredible than that story! No need for a fake, outrageous and unbelievable story.)

Where is the line? I cannot tell you.

So, my suggested rule of thumb ...

If you find it positive, helpful, healthy, beneficial, filled with good meaning, then it is. Don't cling, don't run after or away. I would caution against taking the belief too literally, e.g., Kannon actually appeared to me and left me a message. However, if it is a good message, then accept the truth of the message whether or not she actually appeared. If she did, wonderful. If she did not, wonderful. Still, it is a good message.

Generally, in Soto Zen, even if a positive experience, we say not to cling to it, chase after it (nor run away.) Accept it like a gift, and move on ...

For Hosui's rush of energy: Was it a positive experience? Is it leaving him with something worthwhile? Does it not hurt him in some way? If there are only positive answers, then cherish the experience. In that case, it does not matter if it is "Kundalini energy" or just a pinched nerve.

That is my rule of thumb.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

Question for Jundo, I know Dogen helpfully instructs us to reverence the particularities of the everyday, e.g., using the appropriate ritual etiquette for toothbrushing, cleaning our face, using the toilet, bowing, etc., so that we appreciate how there's only practice-enlightenment in the here and now. Outside of the Fukanzezengi and our zazen practice, does Dogen also suggest similarly helpful etiquette for managing out-of-the-norm esoteric experiences?

There are a couple of small stories in which Dogen reports having "out-of-the-norm" experiences, once hearing strange temple bells although no temple was close by, one seeing falling flowers with sweet scent. Most of these stories appear to be embellishments added to his biography in the centuries after his death. It is said that Dogen wrote about the vision of the rakan, but I cannot find a first hand source. They are pretty low key:

More than twenty laymen who participated in one precept recitation ceremony at Eiheiji in 1247 witnessed the appearance of multicolored clouds shining out from the abbot's building (hōjō). The laymen were so awed by the experience that they wrote a pledge always to testify to the truth of its occurrence. On other occasions at Eiheiji when Dōgen preached to officials or noble ladies, gongs from an unearthly temple bell echoed through the valley and the fragrance of unknown incense filled the air. Dōgen also conducted ceremonies for the public worship of the sixteen supernatural rakan (Skt. arhat) who protect Buddhism. During one of these services in 1249 rays of light shown out from the images and the rakan themselves magically appeared before the worshipers as heavenly flowers rained down. Dōgen wrote that such apparitions had been known previously only at Mt. T'ien-t'ai in China. [Bodiford, Soto Zen in Medieval Japan]

Even then, he barely mentioned such experiences, and did not seem to place much importance in them. Prof Bodiford says, " Monks and laymen recorded these events as testaments to his great mystical power. In their eyes these awe-inspiring incidents helped confirm the legitimacy of Dōgen's teachings against competing claims made by members of the Buddhist establishment and other outcast groups, including advocates of other types of meditation (or zen). Moreover, the apparitions and magical events at Eiheiji helped identify the temple as a cultic center, as sacred land where one could find direct access to the unseen spiritual powers. These types of supernatural visitations are a perennial component of the topography of major Buddhist centers in East Asia"" In other words, it was important to attribute miracles to spiritual places and people (the same as in all religions.)

Dogen actually made a very down to earth interpretation of miraculous or spiritual powers in his famous essay in Shobogenzo, Jinzu. He calls what we would usually think of as "paranormal" powers as "small powers," while truly Great Powers are more mundane ...

... They all learn the small spiritual powers and only acquire small stature; they do not reach the great spiritual powers of the buddhas and ancestors. ... The two vehicles, the other paths, the sutra masters and treatise masters, and the like, learn the small spiritual powers; they do not learn the great spiritual powers. The buddhas maintain the great spiritual powers; they transmit the great spiritual powers. These are the spiritual powers of a buddha. ... The great spiritual powers take in the small spiritual powers; the small spiritual powers do not know the great spiritual powers. By “small spiritual powers,” we mean [miracles like] “a hair follicle swallowing the vast ocean, a mustard seed containing Sumeru.” Or “emitting water from the upper body, emitting fire from the lower body,” and the like. ... This being the case, while the emitting of water in the Small Vehicle may be a spiritual power, we should study
the fact that the carrying of water [from a well] is a great spiritual power. “Bearing water and carrying firewood” have never been discarded, nor have people neglected them. That they have, therefore, from ancient times to the present, been handed down from this one to that, without ever reverting for a moment, is the “spiritual powers and wondrous functions.” They are the great spiritual powers; they cannot be the same as “the little stuff.” [Shobogenzo-Jinzu]

Gassho, J
stlah

[Bion]

Here's my tiny contribution to this discussion, if you'll allow me.
Master Keizan was a product of his causes and conditions, including a very religious and superstitious mother, a society that was focused on many spiritual, supernatural things, a specific education and take on practice. All that was clearly visible, I believe, in what he did.
All that aside, regarding the woo-woo, esoteric practices and experiences, I always look to the Buddha for guidance. There were certain things he never agreed to talk about. Some questions, he said, were not worth pursuing. Questions such as ¨is there a soul?", "is the universe infinite?", "does the Tathagata exist still after dying?"... These things he said were not relevant to the Path.
So, for me, when I think of "out of this world" experiences, supernatural things, the unanswerable questions, I would try to determine whether pursuing those is relevant or not to the path. Also, if it is a conditioned experience, if it is of the senses, then, whatever it might've been, it is subject to delusion and impermanence, and therefore it is subject to clinging too. Best to let it go. Like that. The pertinent questions in my practice are always "what am I doing in this very moment to walk to Buddha Way?" "what causes am I putting into place?" "am I creating suffering for myself or others or both?" "Is this helping me remove unwholesome qualities and develop wholesome ones?" Can't go wrong with that, I think

Sorry for funning a bit long

Gassho
sat lah

[Hoseki]

Hi Shoshin,

https://terebess.hu/ (https://terebess.hu/zen/denko-roku.html) has some documents on Keizan that might be of interest.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Shui_Di]

Hi everyone,

I am living in South East Asian country, in Indonesia where the society is very religious, traditional and like the woo-woo things. One of the very successful TV show was "looking for ghost in the mid night". There are a lot of horror movies made by Indonesian ???? lol

So, I agreed with Bion that Keizan Zenji was living in that kind of society, where Samurais need the blessing from priests, as the Shinto priests do. I believe Keizan Zenji incorporate an esoteric part in Soto Shu is kind of an Upaya / Skillful Means needed at that time so it will fit the Japanese culture at that era.

But, yes, esoteric practice can be dangerous if it is not handled wisely. The danger is when this esoteric practice make people believe that the Buddha teaching is to gain some magic power, or believe that with some magic power one can gain whatever they want, such as wealth, power or even enlightenment. It is more dangerous when the esoteric teacher claim that a student should follow whatever his instruction in the name of Samaya Vows, to get enlightened. There is a big chance for power abuse here. This phenomenon happened in some fake Guru in Tibet, who created a lot of scandals.

But, in my point of view, sometimes a little esoteric practice with wisdom can be helpful for some people. For example, it happened for my Grannie. My Grannie devoted her practice to do Nembutsu (Chanting Amitabha Buddha name). She did it day and night. And oneday my Grannie due to illness, suddenly came to my house, telling my mom about anything my mom should remember (the date of the death of my grand grand Pa and Grand grand ma etc). And then she told my mom that she won't be back again. My mom was confused. But that night my Auntie said my Grannie before she fell sleep she asked for her rosary beads, and do Nembutsu and Fell sleep, and died peacefully.

Nembutsu people said it was because of the power of Amitabha which made my Grannie can face her death peacefully.
BUT, I myself believe Amitabha is not someone outside ourselves. Even my Grannie couldn't read or write, never got formal education, she was just a simple peasant and selling tofu, and rare to go to temple, her BELIEF to Amitabha Buddha and the western Pureland made her did Nembutsu in her whole life. Her behavior calmed her, and naturally developed her concentration, which help her peacefully face her death.

For me, I am not a fan of Nembutsu. It is hard for me to belief of another power. But some people with some social background like my Grannie belief it. For the person like my Grannie, I think she would choose Nembutse then Zazen. For me, I will choose Zazen then Nembutsu. People who practice Zazen everyday, will surely face their death peacefully too, since we drop body and mind in our practice.

So different people need different approach. And for Keizan, I think Keizan incorporate some esoteric element (with care and wisdom), for the people like my Grannie. As a bridge for Japanese people to belief in Soto Shu, and later introduce Zazen as the main method. For Soto Zen, it is very clear that the main emphases is Zazen as taught by Dogen Zenji.

Well, this is just my point of view.

Gassho, Mujo
SatToday LAH

[Hosui]

Thanks for sharing this, Shui_Di -Di.

I've found browsing the Treeleaf Forum archives under the heading 'leprechaun' very useful to this conversation about woo-woo

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[Shui_Di]

Thanks for sharing this, Shui_Di -Di.

I've found browsing the Treeleaf Forum archives under the heading 'leprechaun' very useful to this conversation about woo-woo

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

Thanks Hosui

Gassho, Mujo

[Shoshin]

Here is what I suggest.

I approach these experiences and esoteric teachings as largely symbolic, but they can express profound Truths. So, for example, last night I had a dream about my late grandfather (really, I did. It was a nice dream). I do not actually think that he was "there," coming back to wave at me, yet he was there in my heart. It was meaningful and as real as real can be, in that way. Onki had his vision during his therapy (link above) where I was standing among people looking at him in his grave. I do not believe that I was actually there, yet I was (in Onki's heart or subconscious), and the whole episode conveyed a profound truth for Onki on life, death and impermanence ... a truth as true as true can be. Likewise, art, poems, paintings, novels, myths and legends can be true, with powerful lessons and meaning, even if not literally "true."

So, if you have had experiences, like Onki had his experiences, and the experience seems positive, helpful, healthy, beneficial, filled with good meaning ... then it is a good experience, and has that truth that is priceless. I completely believe in and support such experiences, visions and beliefs. As I said to Onki, it does not matter if the experience is the wisdom in Onki coming out to understand life using certain visions he is having, or life speaking to Onki through those visions, or both ... he is still having good visions with positive lessons in any case.

Now, at the other extreme, my problem with many esoteric beliefs is that they go further into what I call "woo woo," non-sense, distracting quack medicine and weird claims (e.g., the Bodhisattva Kannon was seen in a Guru's vision to enter into this crystal amulet which, if you wear it, has vibrations which will ease your heart, cure your cancer and bring you good fortune.) There might be some psychological benefit to the person, some placebo like positive effect, and most of religion is based on such "woo woo."

However, I do not teach woo woo. I think the woo woo tends to hurt, distract, and hide more than it clarifies and helps. It makes people run mostly after charms and incantations for worldly benefits, and they miss the true power of the Buddhist teachings for all the "shiny gimmicks" and side-show circus. We do not need woo woo. This life and world are miraculous enough, real science is real magic ... no need for silly magic and superstition. (I am writing a book now recounting the whole amazing story about how the universe ran from the Big Bang to Shoshin's birth, and it does not get any more fantastic and incredible than that story! No need for a fake, outrageous and unbelievable story.)

Where is the line? I cannot tell you.

So, my suggested rule of thumb ...

If you find it positive, helpful, healthy, beneficial, filled with good meaning, then it is. Don't cling, don't run after or away. I would caution against taking the belief too literally, e.g., Kannon actually appeared to me and left me a message. However, if it is a good message, then accept the truth of the message whether or not she actually appeared. If she did, wonderful. If she did not, wonderful. Still, it is a good message.

Generally, in Soto Zen, even if a positive experience, we say not to cling to it, chase after it (nor run away.) Accept it like a gift, and move on ...

For Hosui's rush of energy: Was it a positive experience? Is it leaving him with something worthwhile? Does it not hurt him in some way? If there are only positive answers, then cherish the experience. In that case, it does not matter if it is "Kundalini energy" or just a pinched nerve.

That is my rule of thumb.

Gassho, J
stlah

Thanks, Jundo.
Gasso,
Satlah

[Houzan]

I am aware that my reflections here will add little value to the discussion, but I did enjoy all your posts so here goes me wasting your time

All spiritual paths I’ve come across seem to aim for a goal. All chan and zen paths as well. Except one: the one we are practicing (this is not to say that there is no wisdom in the rest!). There is something so fundamentally different to our practice, it seems to me, compared to all the other numberless buddhist and non-buddhist practices: we have absolutely nothing to grab onto. No goal. We are thrown right into the deep part of the pool. Sawaki said: “zazen is good for nothing”. Our practice is good for nothing. And therefore, quoting Nishijima, “zazen is good for everything”. Our practice is good for everything.

Did Keizan dabble a bit too much with the shallow part of the pool? Or was it no dabbling but purely skillful means to make this practice available to us today. I trust it’s the latter. Despite the reason, I guess we are all very grateful for him doing as he did.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

[Bion]

I am aware that my reflections here will add little value to the discussion, but I did enjoy all your posts so here goes me wasting your time

All spiritual paths I’ve come across seem to aim for a goal. All chan and zen paths as well. Except one: the one we are practicing (this is not to say that there is no wisdom in the rest!). There is something so fundamentally different to our practice, it seems to me, compared to all the other numberless buddhist and non-buddhist practices: we have absolutely nothing to grab onto. No goal.

And yet, we very determinately return to practice over and over again, with the goal of continuing to practice, whether it's in zazen, in kinhin, in chanting, in cooking, in being ill, in running to the store etc It takes profound conviction, strong motivation and determination to never deviate, as master Dogen says, from practice-enlightenment.
I guess I am trying to say, we absolutely are not aimlessly practicing, although we drop the goals when we plop ourselves on the cushion.

Gassho
sat lah

[Shoshin]

Hi Shoshin,

https://terebess.hu/ (https://terebess.hu/zen/denko-roku.html) has some documents on Keizan that might be of interest.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

Thanks!!
Gassho
Satlah