Zen Master Bei Shun

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 41097

    Zen Master Bei Shun

    Dear All (each, I assume, the offspring of sex) ...

    I wish to address a question I was asked yesterday by a lay person (pun intended) in our Sangha who felt some friction (pun intended) masturbating and watching porno sometimes. Another single fellow asked about a few "one night stands"(what we old people called "hook-ups" ) Maybe the nearness of Spring, and Valentine's Day, was putting such things on folks' mind. They had each taken the Bodhisattva Precepts at Jukai, including our Precept on "not misusing sexuality," and both seem seriously concerned about the Karma of doing so. Both say that their "puritanical upbringing" in another religion may be playing a role (role playing ... get it? ) They don't want to harm somebody, wonder when sex is harming somebody, and one fellow thinks that the time watching porn could be better spent "helping suffering sentient beings."
    Actually, I get asked about sex questions a lot (not much mystery why ) ...

    I answer as follows, and wonder if folks would have other positions (pun intended) on this hard topic (pun intended), or if it rubs some the wrong way (pun intended) ...
    ~~~~

    Hi. You are a lay person, not a monk. Your vow is not to "misuse sex," not to give up all sex. Celibacy is beautiful and to be honored for those who choose, whether Ordained or Householder lay people. In some schools of Buddhism, ALL DESIRE, especially for sex, is the root of suffering. However, in other schools of Buddhism, including especially the Japanese Mahayana, MODERATION of desires, and not becoming entrapped in desires, is what is important ... whether for eating, drinking alcohol, smoking pot, possessing money and material objects or sex. If you are an alcoholic, for example, even one (1) drop may be poison. But otherwise, MODERATION and proper timing for all things. Thus, please do not masturbate in the office, at funerals or on the city bus.

    Japanese monks even offer some matchmaking services to lay people (and there are matchmaking services especially to help busy Japanese monks find dating partners and spouses. LINK )

    In the entire history of Asian Buddhism, there has always been sex, masturbation and sexual relations among consenting partners. Especially for lay people. Otherwise, if all were celibate, there would be no Buddhists left after the first generation because no Buddhist babies. Granted, masturbation, sex with birth control,same-sex sex or the like, does not make babies ... but there was just never an expectation that lay Buddhists can only have sex to make babies.

    The traditional Vinaya rules for celibate monks says ... "Intentional emission of semen, except while dreaming, is an offense entailing suspension.”

    In the Japanese tradition, where monks do NOT undertake the Vinaya precepts, monks can marry and have wholesome sex (at least, when outside the monastery.) Buddhist clergy date, sexy things happen between unmarried people, people masturbate. Even Zen Masters can "Master Bate." image.pngTalk about "The Sound of One Hand Clapping! )

    I think that, for non-celibate lay persons, there is no problem with masturbating. Of course, all things in moderation. If you find yourself masturbating 5 times a day, that sounds like addiction and is no good, excessive ... like eating chocolate cake five times a day, or drinking alcohol five times a day. I hear doctors say that men (but I hear that women masturbate too! Is that true? ) sometimes may masturbate daily, and it is a perfectly natural thing for the body, like needing to eat, drink, urinate, breathe daily. This doctor says that ... like eating or anything ... it is "too much" when it interferes or has unhealthy effects on your life (e.g., you are missing work, it is causing you to miss out on relationships with actual human beings, etc. LINK The doctor also cautions against doing it so much you get skin irritation! ) If you just sat Zazen 5 times a day (outside sesshin or a monastery), and it interfered with much of life apart from that, I would say it is too much too!

    As to porno and short sexual relationships, I would simply advise (1) don't be addicted to sex and porno, the same way as one should not be addicted to food or drink, i.e., all things in moderation, and (2) avoid the ugly stuff where people hurt or get hurt, especially where people really get hurt rather than pretend. Do avoid porno if something looks wrong, as if somebody is being forced into it, coerced, underage, made to do so for reasons of a drug habit, poverty or the like, and is not there by choice. (3) You should avoid sex at certain times in practice, such as when in an actual monastery or retreat. Please do not have sex during Sesshin! And NOT DURING ZAZEN PLEASE! Wait until after. Also, honor committed relationships, honesty and avoid cheating. Keep relationships consensual, even short ones, where everyone is left feeling that it was a positive experience, not something sordid. No means no. Try to avoid psychologically manipulating someone for sex, and ... well, everyone should come out of the experience feeling positive about it.

    If one does wish to be celibate for a time as their lifestyle choice, that is fine too, and a powerful practice. However, just don't think that it is required of lay folks, or even monks in the Japanese traditions. My Teacher, Nishijima Roshi, decided to become celibate in his mid-50s, but said that he would not have done so earlier. He also asked his wife for permission to become celibate and, according to what he told me, said she was fine with it and would not miss it much. My Teacher's teacher was the son, by the way, of my teacher's teacher's teacher ... so I can only assume that my teacher's teacher's teacher had sex, and his father before him.

    Yes, you could be out building homes for the homeless rather than masturbating, it is true. Likewise for sleeping, studying the Dharma, eating, drinking or reading a book, or sitting Zazen. How about you sleep, study the Dharma, eat, drink, read, sit Zazen and masturbate, THEN go out and help the homeless? (Not necessarily in that exact order.) A time for all good things.
    Have fun! (In moderation!) We can have desires ... in moderation, and without being overly clinging, caught and attached to desires. If you only thought about sex, and chased it all the time, there would be a problem. Once in awhile, following your natural urges as a lay person, is not a problem.

    I could make a joke about the Hell of Hungry Ghosts where they are all starving because they selfishly try to feed only themselves with these long spoons that won't reach their own mouth. But, when they finally feed each other, all are nourished!
    .
    . image.png

    Well, I would say it is the same with Hungry Ghost masturbation! Help the other person!

    So, I give balanced masturbation a bit of a thumbs up and the other four fingers too!

    Gassho, J
    stlah

    PS - Reminds me of this joke I heard once from our Kotei ...
    A new monk arrives at the monastery.
    He is assigned to help the other monks in copying the old texts by hand.
    He notices, however, that they are copying copies, and not the original books.

    So, the new monk goes to the head monk to ask him about this.
    He points out that if there was an error in the first copy, that error would be continued in all of the other copies.
    The head monk says, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son."

    So, he goes down into the cellar with one of the copies to check it against the original.
    Hours later, nobody has seen him. So, one of the monks goes downstairs to look for him.
    He hears sobbing coming from the back of the cellar and finds the old monk leaning over one of the original books crying.
    "Celebrate", "the word was Celebrate!"

    PPS - ** A statue of the Buddha Samantabhadra in union with his consort Buddha Samantabhadri, the primordial Buddha pair in some forms of Tibetan Buddhism. The statue symbolizes the union of wisdom and skilled means, and the ultimate realization of enlightenment, and the non-duality of samsara and nirvana. LINK
    Last edited by Jundo; 02-16-2025, 03:14 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 41097

    #2
    PPPS - Oh, I remembered that we had an episode on this on our Zen of Everything podcast awhile back ...

    Many Zen priests in Japanese Buddhism have active sex lives, others are celibate. We discuss how Buddhism treats sex, and how it makes the world go around.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Seiko
      Novice Priest-in-Training
      • Jul 2020
      • 1157

      #3
      I would like to add a few words, but please remember that I am just a novice priest and take whatever I say with a pinch of salt.

      Some time ago, before ordination, after taking yoga class for quite a few months, I discovered that my yoga teacher was also a pole dancer. When I brought this up she invited me to watch videos of pole dancing and discuss it with her. Her claim was that pole dancing includes a lot of tricks and balances that require strength and practice like any form of sport or athletics. I stopped myself from pre-judging, I watched the videos asked questions and discussed.

      The conclusion I reached was that (in her case) her pole dancing was overtly sexual, that she intended it to be, and that she was profiting from this by teasing patrons of the strip club that she works in. Her work there includes dancing naked. To me, this seemed to be an activity that encourages her audience towards breaking precepts, she aims to sexually excite them (and create a fantasy that they could have sex with her), this is how she builds her income. In a way, this creates suffering by getting men to think they can have her when they can't. In this situation, fuelled by the strippers antics, by alcohol and lust, there are times when men behave unacceptably. Overstepping the mark, any uninvited touching, results in security inviting the offending "punter" to leave.

      My point here is that this person knowingly set out to increase suffering - to exploit sexual desire in order to increase profit.

      I would say, all questions on precepts come back to one thing - are we causing harm or not?

      Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

      PS. When I tried to discuss this with her (she says she is a Plum Village Buddhist) she became defensive, angry and abusive. I stopped attending her yoga class and broke all contact with her.

      ​​

      ​​​​

      Last edited by Seiko; 02-15-2025, 08:50 AM.
      Gandō Seiko
      頑道清光
      (Stubborn Way of Pure Light)

      My street name is 'Al'.

      Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 41097

        #4
        Originally posted by Seiko
        ...
        The conclusion I reached was that (in her case) her pole dancing was overtly sexual, that she intended it to be, and that she was profiting from this by teasing patrons of the strip club that she works in. Her work there includes dancing naked. To me, this seemed to be an activity that encourages her audience towards breaking precepts, she aims to sexually excite them (and create a fantasy that they could have sex with her), this is how she builds her income. In a way, this creates suffering ...
        Maybe that is a little harsh, Seiko. I agree that it can be an ugly situation, but perhaps it does not always need to be? For example, there is belly dancing, and the Geisha, and courtesan's of the past who the Buddha honored. Are they all guilty of the same?

        Āmrapālī was a celebrated nagarvadhu (royal courtesan) of the Republic of Vaishali (located in present-day Bihar) in ancient India around 500 BC. Following the Buddha's teachings, she became an arahant. She is mentioned in the old Pali texts and Buddhist traditions (āgama sutras), particularly in conjunction with the Buddha staying at her mango grove, Ambapali vana, which she later donated to his order and wherein he preached the famous Ambapalika Sutra.... It was customary that the most beautiful women in the land, rather than marrying one man, dedicated themselves to the pleasure of many. ... Amrapali had the right to choose her lovers, but according to the aforementioned custom, she could not be committed to any one man. After being declared a Nagarvadhu. Her talent and beauty attracted so many men that the glory of Vaishali during this period is often attributed to Amrapali's fame. The price to see Amrapali's art form was fifty Karshapanas per night, and her treasury grew much larger than the treasuries of some kings. ...

        ... In Buddhist records, Amrapali is noted as having had the opportunity to serve food to the Buddha during his last visit to Vaishali, shortly before his death. Amrapali attended his sermon at a nearby grove and was so deeply moved by it that she invited him for a meal at her quarters. In other accounts, it is stated that the Buddha himself took shelter in her mango groves and was visited by Amrapali who paid her obeisance to him and then extended the invitation. He consented to her proposal with silence.[ On her way back, her chariot collided with that of the princely nobles of Vaishali who were also heading to invite the Buddha to dine with them. They berate her by calling her a 'mango-woman' and ask her, a woman of ill repute, to move aside and let her superiors pass. It is then that she announces that the Buddha was coming to her house for a meal. The princes were upset and offered her gold in return of the privilege of hosting the Buddha but she refuses. Buddha also turns them down, having already committed to Amrapali.

        Buddha recognised her beauty and advised his disciples to be mindful in her presence lest they become infatuated with her. Amrapali received the Buddha with her retinue in her grand residence which had been specially decorated for the occasion. It was no less than the palace of any king; such was the wealth she commanded. At the conclusion of the meal, she offered to the Buddha and his order her entire property including her groves which became the venue for several sermons on mindfulness. Soon thereafter, she renounced her position as courtesan or court dancer, accepted the Buddhist way, and remained an active supporter of the Buddhist order. She dedicated her life to the service of the poor and the destitutes.
        :




        Gassho, J
        stlah
        Last edited by Jundo; 02-15-2025, 09:30 AM.
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Shoshin
          Member
          • Jul 2024
          • 291

          #5
          Originally posted by Seiko
          I would like to add a few words, but please remember that I am just a novice priest and take whatever I say with a pinch of salt.

          Some time ago, before ordination, after taking yoga class for quite a few months, I discovered that my yoga teacher was also a pole dancer. When I brought this up she invited me to watch videos of pole dancing and discuss it with her. Her claim was that pole dancing includes a lot of tricks and balances that require strength and practice like any form of sport or athletics. I stopped myself from pre-judging, I watched the videos asked questions and discussed.

          The conclusion I reached was that (in her case) her pole dancing was overtly sexual, that she intended it to be, and that she was profiting from this by teasing patrons of the strip club that she works in. Her work there includes dancing naked. To me, this seemed to be an activity that encourages her audience towards breaking precepts, she aims to sexually excite them (and create a fantasy that they could have sex with her), this is how she builds her income. In a way, this creates suffering by getting men to think they can have her when they can't. In this situation, fuelled by the strippers antics, by alcohol and lust, there are times when men behave unacceptably. Overstepping the mark, any uninvited touching, results in security inviting the offending "punter" to leave.

          My point here is that this person knowingly set out to increase suffering - to exploit sexual desire in order to increase profit.

          I would say, all questions on precepts come back to one thing - are we causing harm or not?

          Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

          PS. When I tried to discuss this with her (she says she is a Plum Village Buddhist) she became defensive, angry and abusive. I stopped attending her yoga class and broke all contact with her.



          ​​​​

          This is a very interesting anecdote.
          I'd like to reflect about the fact that there are many other professions that create desire, that exploit desire and that create the false illusion that we can have something that we can't.
          ​​​​Actually all our society is built around the desire for more and more objects, sex, status, power, comfort, pleasure ... (I won't get into the economic and political reasons for this ...)
          So, there are many, many professions that make profit of it. My guess is that most of them, actually...

          ​​​​​​Pole dancing is so obviously making profit from desire that it is almost impossible not to think critically about it. But I see no substantial difference between pole dancing, advertising, producing products that we don't need or we don't need in the quantity we purchase them (like clothes), conducting a TV programme that is designed to create the desire for a more "glamorous" life...

          At the same time I acknowledge that, precisely because our society is built around desire, it's not so easy to find professions that won't exploit desire and many people end up not having much choice but to work in whatever job they are able to find. The only thing that we can do is to do our jobs with a sense of service towards others and with kindness. (And perhaps change jobs if we are lucky and have the opportunity)

          Gassho
          Satlah
          ​​​​​

          Shōshin - Pine Heart 松心

          Comment

          • Seiko
            Novice Priest-in-Training
            • Jul 2020
            • 1157

            #6
            Originally posted by Shoshin
            There are many other professions that create desire, that exploit desire and that create the false illusion that we can have something that we can't.
            Originally posted by Jundo
            Maybe that is a little harsh, Seiko.
            ​​​​​I regret mentioning this situation, as it's impossible to give a complete picture without going into a lot more detail. I choose not to do that. Enough to say that I did consider carefully before reaching my conclusion/decision and I am confident that it was balanced and right.

            That is not to condemn all pole dancers - just that in this case, I think I did the best I could in the circumstances.

            My point was really that the question to ask ourselves in each circumstance is "am I doing no harm" (or the least harm possible given the situation).

            Gasshō, Seiko, stlah




            Gandō Seiko
            頑道清光
            (Stubborn Way of Pure Light)

            My street name is 'Al'.

            Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.

            Comment

            • Shoshin
              Member
              • Jul 2024
              • 291

              #7
              Originally posted by Seiko



              ​​​​I regret mentioning this situation, as it's impossible to give a complete picture without going into a lot more detail. I choose not to do that. Enough to say that I did consider carefully before reaching my conclusion/decision and I am confident that it was balanced and right.

              That is not to condemn all pole dancers - just that in this case, I think I did the best I could in the circumstances.

              My point was really that the question to ask ourselves in each circumstance is "am I doing no harm" (or the least harm possible given the situation).

              Gasshō, Seiko, stlah



              I'm sure that your conclusion was balanced and fair.
              I just wanted to make a general reflection.

              Yes, I see what you meant and I agree. Once I read somewhere "when I don't know what to do I ask myself, what would LOVE do"?

              Gassho,
              Satlah
              Shōshin - Pine Heart 松心

              Comment

              • Hosai
                Member
                • Jun 2024
                • 691

                #8
                Stop going to pole dances Seiko!

                助平やんけ!

                _/\_
                sat/ah
                hōsai
                Last edited by Hosai; 02-15-2025, 05:40 PM.

                Comment

                • Shinshi
                  Senior Priest-in-Training
                  • Jul 2010
                  • 3801

                  #9
                  Well pole dancing can be quite fun as well.





                  Gassho, Shinshi

                  Sat_LaH


                  空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi

                  For Zen students a weed is a treasure. With this attitude, whatever you do, life becomes an art.
                  ​— Shunryu Suzuki

                  E84I - JAJ

                  Comment

                  • Hosai
                    Member
                    • Jun 2024
                    • 691

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Shinshi
                    Well pole dancing can be quite fun as well.

                    [/video]


                    full disclosure... I actually went looking for this Bei Shun fellow...

                    Screenshot_20250215-151831_copy_396x305_1.png
                    _/\_
                    sat/ah
                    hōsai
                    Last edited by Hosai; 02-16-2025, 02:38 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Shoshin
                      Member
                      • Jul 2024
                      • 291

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Shinshi
                      Well pole dancing can be quite fun as well.





                      Gassho, Shinshi

                      Sat_LaH



                      Here in Sweden we also enjoy the occasional pole dance.





                      Gassho,
                      Satlah
                      Shōshin - Pine Heart 松心

                      Comment

                      • Kokuu
                        Dharma Transmitted Priest
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 6970

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Shoshin
                        Here in Sweden we also enjoy the occasional pole dance.
                        https://youtu.be/vY6BZnXHOJQ?si=QtJ5t2ANE5hh0TX8
                        As long as it doesn't end up like the Midsommar film!

                        Gassho
                        Kokuu
                        -sattoday/lah-

                        Comment

                        • Shoshin
                          Member
                          • Jul 2024
                          • 291

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Kokuu

                          As long as it doesn't end up like the Midsommar film!

                          Gassho
                          Kokuu
                          -sattoday/lah-
                          Ha, ha
                          I'm too afraid of watching it. I've been told that it's really nightmarish

                          Gassho
                          Satlah
                          Shōshin - Pine Heart 松心

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