Queerness and Liberation

[Shoshin]

I have lived through a period of time where it did seem that there was hope for a more liberated society. I

_/\_
sat/ah
Hōsai

Same. If you had asked me 20 years ago I would have told you that we where on the verge of changing the world. That a more compassionate and free world was about to be born.

Now I believe we will probably need to find liberation "between our ears" as long as mind reading technologies allow us to do it. ("1984" by George Orwell comes often to my mind lately....).


Gassho
Satlah

[Chikyou]

This is a lovely post and a lovely discussion Onsho! I have many many thoughts - my Zen journey and my queer journey have been going hand in hand lately - but no time right now so I’ll have to come back to this..

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[IanSmith]

Shoshin Thats a wonderful and moving post
Many thanks
Gassho
Ian
Sattoday/ lah

[Hosai]

One of my dearests and closest relatives spent one month in preventive jail for something he was a suspect of. While he was there he didn't know how long he would stay there.
He was only 19 years old at the time. In one of the visits I payed to him he told me: "I spend my time reading, reflecting and writing. I also look through the window to the world outside. I see four walls and a door through which I'm not allowed to go. And I realise that as long as I don't hold in me a desire to go through this door I remain a free man".
Only 19 years old. I was truly moved.

Gassho
Satlah

To quote Bernie Glassman (if memory serves) "We are all just doing time".

_/\_
sat/ah
Hosai

[Onsho]

Can you find liberation in the oppression?

I think we have an eightfold plan for that.


From what reading here, I think im correct to believe that you care a great deal for vulnerable children. Its a very noble volition. Does your school or community have anything in place to support these kids? In Ontario there are local GSAs (Gay Strait Alliance) and there is also PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)... an outdated name but still a very productive group. I find these groups to be such a positive influence in serving your local community. You have such a big heart Hosai. I can really see you making a positive impact on a local level through these kinds of groups.

Gassho
Onsho
Sat-early so I can respond and LAH

[Jundo]

I rewrote the comment I posted this morning because it could have been clearer. Let me say it more simply.

A Sangha Member wrote me, after reading this thread, asking if it was "okay" that they had more "traditional/conservative" views that marriage should be between "a man and a woman," and that there were two genders. I want to answer, putting aside my own personal views on these issues.

In this Sangha, and in society in general, we should be tolerant of each other, and various peaceful, sincere views on issues like this are possible among "good Buddhists." So, one can be a "good Buddhist" if one supports "Gay Marriage" or "traditional marriage," or if one is or supports LGBTQ or has more traditional views on gender and identity. So long as we allow the other people to be who they are, and we are gentle, allowing and sincere in our opinions, all are welcome in this Sangha. Buddhism itself has been very hard to pin down in its traditional opinions on these issues, in part because it was largely a celibate tradition.

So, in this Sangha, and in society in general, folks who believe in many genders or two genders, Gay Marriage or traditional marriage, should be tolerant of each other, and respect each other and let the others have their opinions and live their lives. All are good, gentle people to the extent that they are tolerant and peaceful toward others who may have their own lives and differing viewpoints.

Gassho, Jundo
StLah

[IanSmith]

Thank you Roshi,
We should all accept each other for wherever l look I see myself.

Gassho
Ian
Sattoday/lah

[Shoshin]

I rewrote the comment I posted this morning because it could have been clearer. Let me say it more simply.

A Sangha Member wrote me, after reading this thread, asking if it was "okay" that they had more "traditional/conservative" views that marriage should be between "a man and a woman," and that there were two genders. I want to answer, putting aside my own personal views on these issues.

In this Sangha, and in society in general, we should be tolerant of each other, and various peaceful, sincere views on issues like this are possible among "good Buddhists." So, one can be a "good Buddhist" if one supports "Gay Marriage" or "traditional marriage," or if one is or supports LGBTQ or has more traditional views on gender and identity. So long as we allow the other people to be who they are, and we are gentle, allowing and sincere in our opinions, all are welcome in this Sangha. Buddhism itself has been very hard to pin down in its traditional opinions on these issues, in part because it was largely a celibate tradition.

So, in this Sangha, and in society in general, folks who believe in many genders or two genders, Gay Marriage or traditional marriage, should be tolerant of each other, and respect each other and let the others have their opinions and live their lives. All are good, gentle people to the extent that they are tolerant and peaceful toward others who may have their own lives and differing viewpoints.

Gassho, Jundo
StLah

Thanks Jundo, I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.
There is just one tiny word that bothers me a bit. Maybe it is my brain's tendeny to paying attention to the details but I'm not sure what it means "should" in the context of this sentence: "they had more "traditional/conservative" views that marriage should be between "a man and a woman".
Does it mean that had they the power to stop me from marrying a woman had a fell in love with one instead of my husband they would use this power?
If it is the case, if they would use their power to stop me from marrying whoever I love, does it mean that they truly "allow the other people to be who they are"?

I'm more than willing to (or at least to try) look at those people with compassion. I'm a 100% willing to talk about the matter with kindness and patience. I'm willing to believe that they believe that they are doing the right thing. I'm willing to believe that, unlike some other people, they don't hold their views from a position of hatred.
But I don't think it can be said that they are willing to "allow me be who I am".

But maybe this "should " means that they would prefer things in a certain way but wouldn't impose that to anyone. If that's the case, that's a very different situation. And I truly hope that this is what this "should" mean.

I don't want to start a debate in this. I don't even need to know what this "should" actually mean. I just wanted to speak from my heart.

Gassho,
Satlah

[Jundo]

Hi Shoshin,

I don't think that they should stop you in marrying who you love. Yet they have their belief that Gay Marriage is wrong.

It is a Koan, hard to resolve, and that is all that I can say. The rest is for the legislature, which is not a matter of the Zen Sangha. As a voter, I try to tell the legislature how I feel.

In my first post, I tried to tell the story of my cousin, who became a very orthodox Jew. I thinks he believes I am the devil, and does not approve. I also do not understand his life. However, I respect him because, when we meet for family events, he forgets all that, we laugh and are friendly, and forget all that.

I very much respect the Bishop this week who spoke up at President Trump's inauguration asking for kindness for immigrants who are suffering and LGBTQ people. She did so on scriptural and ethical grounds, not on political grounds. It is a hard line to walk. Bishop Budde had to walk that fine line. She said what she needed to say in that setting.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Kojitsu]

Hi Shoshin,

I don't think that they should stop you in marrying who you love. Yet they have their belief that Gay Marriage is wrong.

It is a Koan, hard to resolve, and that is all that I can say. The rest is for the legislature, which is not a matter of the Zen Sangha. As a voter, I try to tell the legislature how I feel.

In my first post, I tried to tell the story of my cousin, who became a very orthodox Jew. I thinks he believes I am the devil, and does not approve. I also do not understand his life. However, I respect him because, when we meet for family events, he forgets all that, we laugh and are friendly, and forget all that.

I very much respect the Bishop this week who spoke up at President Trump's inauguration asking for kindness for immigrants who are suffering and LGBTQ people. She did so on scriptural and ethical grounds, not on political grounds. It is a hard line to walk. Bishop Budde had to walk that fine line. She said what she needed to say in that setting.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Hi Jundo,
I too really enjoyed the statement this lovely woman said. What really struck me though was the incredibly vicious responses to those words by some.

I have friends and family that run the gamut on political beliefs so I do try to be mindful of others feelings in matters I may not agree with. That being said, it can be very difficult at times to witness some of the responses to people trying to give perspective and love in the world with such hostility.

st/lah
gassho
kojitsu

[Shoshin]

Hi Shoshin,

I don't think that they should stop you in marrying who you love. Yet they have their belief that Gay Marriage is wrong.

It is a Koan, hard to resolve, and that is all that I can say. The rest is for the legislature, which is not a matter of the Zen Sangha. As a voter, I try to tell the legislature how I feel.

In my first post, I tried to tell the story of my cousin, who became a very orthodox Jew. I thinks he believes I am the devil, and does not approve. I also do not understand his life. However, I respect him because, when we meet for family events, he forgets all that, we laugh and are friendly, and forget all that.

I very much respect the Bishop this week who spoke up at President Trump's inauguration asking for kindness for immigrants who are suffering and LGBTQ people. She did so on scriptural and ethical grounds, not on political grounds. It is a hard line to walk. Bishop Budde had to walk that fine line. She said what she needed to say in that setting.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Thanks, Jundo.
To be clear I've never doubted about your personal position on the matter. It seems pretty obvious to me from many many things you do and say what personal values you hold about these and other matters.

What an interesting family gatherings you must have I'd love to be able to put my ear against the wall on the room next door.

I heard the speech. I was very moved. It's indeed a hard line to walk. And they did it with impeccable elegance.

Gassho,
Satlah

[Onsho]

I rewrote the comment I posted this morning because it could have been clearer. Let me say it more simply.

A Sangha Member wrote me, after reading this thread, asking if it was "okay" that they had more "traditional/conservative" views that marriage should be between "a man and a woman," and that there were two genders. I want to answer, putting aside my own personal views on these issues.

In this Sangha, and in society in general, we should be tolerant of each other, and various peaceful, sincere views on issues like this are possible among "good Buddhists." So, one can be a "good Buddhist" if one supports "Gay Marriage" or "traditional marriage," or if one is or supports LGBTQ or has more traditional views on gender and identity. So long as we allow the other people to be who they are, and we are gentle, allowing and sincere in our opinions, all are welcome in this Sangha. Buddhism itself has been very hard to pin down in its traditional opinions on these issues, in part because it was largely a celibate tradition.

So, in this Sangha, and in society in general, folks who believe in many genders or two genders, Gay Marriage or traditional marriage, should be tolerant of each other, and respect each other and let the others have their opinions and live their lives. All are good, gentle people to the extent that they are tolerant and peaceful toward others who may have their own lives and differing viewpoints.

Gassho, Jundo
StLah

Im feeling thankful.

Thank you Jundo for moderating these posts. Its a tough job to have to keep directing folks to use Treeleaf for its intended purpose. Treeleaf isnt able to be what every individual wants it to be. Intolerant of intolerance is a very zen thought but also a great guide line to moderating such a diverse global group.

I think that folks that are anti-lgbt should have a place here. Meet the people with an open heart. Sit along side us. Hear each others stories. Advise and confide in each others growth on our journey.

I sincerely thank that individual for messaging Jundo personally. It was a very respectful choice to not post in the thread and a sign of good character.

I think its a fair assumption that everyone here at some point in their lives has chosen inequity to be a personal value. To relate that back to my original post, putting that value under the microscope could be truly liberating.

With a heart filled with gratitude.

Gassho
Onshō
Satlah

[Taigen]

But maybe this "should " means that they would prefer things in a certain way but wouldn't impose that to anyone. If that's the case, that's a very different situation. And I truly hope that this is what this "should" mean.

Like Shoshin, I have no desire to start a debate on this, or further hijack this beautiful conversation. I simply want to express that this is a tension I am also sitting with. I do agree with Jundo's post both as a matter of policy for Treeleaf and as an aspiration for any community where members hold diverse viewpoints. Hopefully we can all take the opportunity afforded by this space to learn from and grow with each other as we practice.

Gassho,
Taigen
SatLah